Gay Rights, Sure, But What About Religious Freedom?

348

So far as I’m aware, there’s nothing in the Bill of Rights guaranteeing gay people the right to marry a same-sex partner. It’s been a while since I read my copy of the Constitution, admittedly, but I think I would have remembered. There is, however, something in there about religious freedom. In fact, look at that, they made it the first priority.

Now, I understand that the Supreme Court has made rulings that limit this freedom, and I do not disagree with those rulings. You can’t have human sacrifice protected by the First Amendment. You can’t refuse to take your kids to the doctor because your wacky preacher told you that god will heal them. It doesn’t work like that. The rule of law comes first.

But what about when the law deliberately infringes on the very religion upon which this country was founded? What about the state of affairs today, where people are being fined exorbitant sums for refusing to bake cakes for gay weddings? For refusing to hold gay weddings on their private property?

The Strict Scrutiny Standard

For these situations, there are also court rulings to which we can look. In 1962, a woman named Adele Sherbert sued South Carolina for refusing her unemployment benefits on account of the fact that she refused to work on Saturdays. This was forbidden by her religion, which happened to be Seventh-Day Adventist. The court ruled in her favor, claiming that states needed to meet a standard of “strict scrutiny” when choosing law over religion.

It’s time to apply that standard of strict scrutiny to these cases where gay marriage runs up against the right to religious practice. The left has screamed for years that gay Americans should be able to live the life of their choice, yet they have no qualms whatsoever about infringing those choices in favor of their own agenda.

Now it’s gone beyond bakers and farm owners. City officials in Coeur d’Alene, Idaho have warned area ministers that they must officiate gay weddings or risk jail time and fines. How this is even happening in the United States of America, I don’t understand, but it’s a clear indication that we’ve fallen far from the ideals of our past.

In some cases, maybe that’s a good thing. There’s nothing wrong with social progress, and gay people have been reviled and bullied for too long. But if we are just taking their discrimination and moving it over to another group – Christians – then what have we really accomplished? How is that social progress? How is it constitutional?

But this is the way of the left, and it always has been. How they’ve avoided being called out on their hypocrisies in the mainstream for so long is a matter of much mystery. What’s next? Shall we make it mandatory for doctors to perform abortions on demand? Should we force Christian pastors to preach from the Qur’an as often as they preach from the Bible? Shall we make businesses adhere to quotas that demand this many gay people on the payroll, this many transgenders, this many Muslims, this many illegal immigrants…?

We’ve already redefined marriage in this country. I guess now we’re going to redefine discrimination.

348 Comments
  1. Stu Pedaso says

    Despite what the 14th amendment says, the Government treats people unequally in several area’s. If you want to treat everyone equal and give everyone equal privileges. Fine! That’s a can of worms the liberals will soon want to close. If the government treats everyone equal, than you have to tax them equally. Chew on that!

    1. Maynard Merrell says

      When a rich man stands side by side before the Lord they will both be equal. God will not care about wealth or fame, only sin- and who goes where. They will then know who has the real power and that life on this earth was a proving ground, where we would try to prove that we deserved a better life in Heaven. Iife is a contest. Satan told God that he could take Gods believers away from him, and does so by promising man worldly things, like money and power, whores and dope. God promises us a better, equal life if we resist Satan. Now which of the two roads do you wish to travel? Will you be smart or stupid, or just take your chances that God is a nothing.

    2. marshmil says

      If everyone is taxed equally then the wealthy will likely pay less tax. They will have more left over to invest and create jobs. BUT, everyone would be paying EQUAL percent in tax. I’m in favor of a national sales tax. Your paycheck has NO deductions. You get what you earned. You pay tax ONLY when you buy something. There should be a built in system of relief though for those who are unable to draw a paycheck because of illness or handicap. Also, Social Security benefits should NEVER be taxed. We worked for that and paid tax all along so NO TAXATION of monthly Social Security benefits. But then the Leftists will concoct ways to manipulate the system to get MORE money back into the US Treasury.
      I believe with Henry David Thoreau, “They are best governed who are least governed.”

      1. Stu Pedaso says

        That was my point but very well articulated better by you. Thanks!

        1. marshmil says

          Thanks for the compliment. I like your original post very much. People who live from paycheck to paycheck (like I do) have no comprehension about investments. They think people who get a before-deductions paycheck like that of the POTUS ($15,384.61) run to the mall and buy up bunches of things on payday. They have no understanding that someone who might get a monthly “paycheck” for around $1,000,000.00 (like some athletes) does not run out and find things to spend it on. (That’s a major reason they are “broke” most of the time.) People who have high incomes have financial advisors who study the economy and try to recommend INVESTING the money so it can accumulate more by way of “returns” on the investments. With a “flat tax” system the high earners (don’t know if they really EARN it) have more left over to invest. Now here is the Leftists’ can of worms. This means LESS money the Treasury takes in
          to “distribute” according to the whims of whichever political party is in control.
          A “flat tax” though is supposed to balance out though so the Treasury takes in roughly the same amount each year. We just do away with the IRS and millions of loopholes where some are dishonest. With a flat tax system every cash register operator becomes unofficially the “tax collector.” NO you cannot rant about deductions when you buy that loaf of bread or that new three million dollar yacht. You pay the sales tax PERIOD. So when there’s more money left over to invest in the economy by way of the FREE ENTERPRISE system there’s a built in opportunity for the economy to grow which means MORE JOBS.
          Now the issue of number of available job openings is critical lately. And if we
          don’t build a dike to stop the tsunami flood of immigrants washing in we will wind up with a “beach” covered with a pile of unwanted, unusable things from who knows where! But that’s an issue our Congress needs to address IMMEDIATELY.

  2. Baddogg5 says

    marriage is not a right…therefore no civil rights were ever violated

    1. RMCSRET says

      I fully concur, no where in the Constitution does the word MARRIAGE even exist.

      1. paulnordin@aol.com says

        To RMCSRET: Marriage is linked to “…pursuit of happiness…” and the equal protection clause in the Fourteenth Amendment.

        1. RMCSRET says

          Only in the minds of Liberal Judges and folks like you. When I read the
          Constitution I see nothing that states the Federal Government has any say over
          what constitutes a marriage, whether it be between a woman and a man or a
          dog and a donkey. God himself has said what a marriage is made of and that
          is ONE WOMAN AND ONE MAN. That is what Marriage is and can only be.

          1. paulnordin@aol.com says

            To RMCSRET: God didn’t say that. And many people do not believe that there is a God. What then? And talking about a dog and a donkey getting married belittles the issue or makes it seem unimportant. Please, can we talk about marriage between two human beings? Or do you just want to terminate this discussion thread?

          2. RMCSRET says

            Paul I believe to have an honest and open conversation it must be that both
            sides of the conversation are actually honest and if you state that God did not
            say that Marriage is between one woman and one man you are being dishonest.
            As for the dog and the Donkey, well I raised that issue to show how open the
            ruling by Judges have made the issue. It seems that folks of your persuasion
            seem to believe that Trees, and animals have the same rights as humans and in
            fact Lawyers of your persuasion have even gone to court to stipulate that
            trees and animals must be represented by lawyers in court matters. So with all
            of that said please tell me where I misspoke on any one of the issues, and
            hopefully you will be honest this time.
            ,

          3. paulnordin@aol.com says

            I could be mistaken on what God said. I will research it when I find my Bible. My recollection is that He did not mention marriage. I have not heard about trees and animals getting human rights. All animals have the right to be treated humanely, even those being killed for food. I cannot think about trees having human rights. And btw, I am honest, period. Case closed.

          4. RMCSRET says

            If you have to find your bible I know right now that you will never do what you
            say you will do.
            Well about the trees and such you should look that up it seems that you
            progressives would rather give inanimate things more rights than breathing
            people. Then there are some of you who speak good about animals in one
            breath and fully support windfarms and Solar Farms which are killing animals in
            mass. Some rather horribly.

          5. suzyshopper says

            Jesus on earth claimed too be God in the flesh when Jesus was asked about marriage he said this, Matthew 19:4-9( Have ye not read , that he which made them at the beginning, made them male and female, And for this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and the twain shall become one flesh.Wherefore they are no more twain but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together let not man put asunder.They say into him, why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement , and too put her away? He saith until them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts, suffered u too put away your wives,but from the beginning it was not so. And I say until too you, whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and MARRY another, comitteth adultery , and whosoever MARRIETH her which is put away doth commit adultery.Thought I’d help with at least one verse about what God thought about marriage, unless u don’t believe that God and Jesus were one, in that case we’d have a problem.

          6. paulnordin@aol.com says

            My reading of the Bible tells me that Jesus was the son of God. Jesus cannot be His own Father. Did that answer your question, suzyshopper?

    2. MyRoseHasTHORNS says

      Agree. Marriage is a contract. Civil Unions are a similar contract, The State can perform both civil unions and marriages. A church should never be forced to perform a service or ceremony contrary to its tenets or beliefs,

      1. chelseachablis says

        Your absolutely right! A church should NEVER be forced to perform a ceremony that contradicts it’s ideology. And I always thought the reason for getting married in a church was so God would BLESS that union…………..why would He bless the very thing He condemns?! I honestly didn’t think to be gay meant to be lacking in intelligence…but these people are lost……completely lost.

        1. Terry Call says

          Just what church is being forced to marry anyone? Or do you consider two ministers who are operating a for profit wedding chapel a church? If so you’re supporting nothing but money changers in the temple.

  3. MikeS says

    homosexual marriage is not a right. There are no constitutional grounds to force people to violate their religious beliefs to marry homos or bake them cakes.

    1. Yadja says

      Common sense tells one so. When I went to Nursing School our texts said that homosexuality was abnormal and the reasons for it were still not totally understood. But years later all that was taken out of Nursing texts.

      If the Creator only made Adam and Adam or Eve and Eve there would be no overpopulation because there would be no more people…..ever……ever…..

      1. Btty says

        Amen! No Adam and Steve just Adam and Eve.

        1. Yadja says

          Steve would have made it a threesome. LOLOL

          1. Btty says

            ROFLOL, Oh my goodness you gave me my giggle for the day. LOL Where do you live? I’m moving and would like to know if your where I’m planning on going. Utah.

          2. Yadja says

            Well glad I could tickle your funny bone, nope not Utah….Florida the State with a Reputation for old foggies, dimwits and questionable elections. Not to mention water bugs that would shame any Texas roach.

          3. Btty says

            Speaking of Texas I was considering it as a place to move to until I saw their bugs! Know that saying “Everything in Texas is big” well, they weren’t lying! I swear they have bugs/spiders big as airplanes! Nope, I don’t want to wake up in the middle of the night with something crawling on me that’s big enough to carry me away. Maybe one day we will meet because I get to Florida once in awhile. I would love to meet you. 😉

          4. Yadja says

            There are many on here I would really enjoy meeting but alas we can’t share our emails or our names. Sad but true.

            I do believe in Kismet so you never know.

  4. Combatvet52 says

    Religious beliefs don’t count with all these butt heads floating around, next they will say it’s OK to marry a snake.

    1. Red55bird says

      Or marry children

    2. Maynard Merrell says

      Do you mean Hillary Clinton?

      1. Dolores Wieland says

        Haha! Love this

  5. Arnold Young says

    I have been wondering how long it would take some one to figure this out. A sword has 2 edges and it cuts equally well both ways. This excess of demanding that people violate there religious beliefs so they can have there so called rights can be used against them too. How about sueing the homosexuals to force them to do something against their so-called beliefs? Then watch them howl 🙂

    1. Terry Call says

      Treating us as criminals for a century wasn’t enough for you. And you wonder why we hate you vermin of this earth so much. You’re just getting a bit of what you have given. Mercifully your kind are leaving with each passing hearse.

      1. Arnold Young says

        WOW! And you do HOOOWL so nicely.
        Son- that much hate will give you an upset tummy. Have a glass of warm milk and take a nap. You will feel better.

  6. Maynard Merrell says

    Why can’t gays just get married at the Justice of the Peace and avoid all this hassel. Why must those sinners get married in the House of the Lord? Christians (and I am one) must give up on he idea that they must forgive everybody. God is not forgiving. If he were forgiving, he would have no need for a burning Hell because all sinners will have been forgiven.

    1. rchguns says

      I must disagree fundamentally with your statement that God is not forgiving. God of the Old Testament was not a very nice person and was very unforgiving. That all changed with the death of Christ.

      That being said there is absolutely no basis in religion or in the Constitution of the United States where it stipulates that sexual perverts are allowed to be married in the eyes of God or in his house.

      The sexual deviants continually and quite vocally proclaim that they wish to be able to be married so that they will have the same rights under the law that married couples do. I totally agree with this statement with the exception of, stating that they are married. A civil union grants the same rights and responsibilities of a married couple the difference being that the individual did not pledge themselves before God and in essence make a contract between themselves and God.

      When you look at the reason behind their wanting to be gay marriage, and then look at the reason that they give for wanting same-sex marriage when considering “Civil Unions” they have no excuse. The only reason that they carry on the way they do is to prove that there bullies and that they have no respect for anyone and definitely no respect for the rule of law.

      1. Maynard Merrell says

        My understanding is that Christ had as his mission in life, to inform non-Jew that hey had as much access to God as did they, the Jews.

      2. Judy says

        The church’s could fix this if they limited marriage to members of that church only. My church back home did that. And they would counsel you if they knew you were sinning. If they could not get you to repent they would cast you out of the congregation. This is what the bible tells you to do.

        1. suzyshopper says

          Exactly!

      3. mallen11 says

        God is the same yesterday, today and forever. He was just as forgiving in the OT times as He is since the Days of Christ. God is perfect and can be no less. The change after the death of Christ was because the debt of sin was accomplished when He took all the sins of the human race on Him and God the Father judged them. That is why we can confess our sins and be forgiven. The OT believers could confess their sins through their sacrifices as well as without them. As David said in

        1. Maynard Merrell says

          Christ may have died for the sins of believes, since there were not yet any Christians, but I don’t believe he died for the sins of non-believers. I think I’ll use this opportunity to say that Christians should beware of the King James Bible until you have read about King James and why he “revised” the Bible. Look him up on the internet. Also look up the Geneva Bible which was brought to America by the Pilgrims and used by o Founding Fathers in writing the Constitution.

          1. mallen11 says

            You must be a Calvinist because they believe God choses those who will believe. I do not believe ANY Bible translation teaches that. He came to save those who are lost. I don’t believe God sends anyone to hell like Calvin teaches.

          2. Maynard Merrell says

            Priest can rape nuns and commit homosexual acts on young boys because they have no fear of possibly being punished, like going to Hell. And what about ISIS members chopping off the heads of people. That’s all OK because they have been forgiven. And what is judgment day for each and every one of us? Why judge any of us, just send us on to paradise. King James wanted to make sure he could remain in power by claiming to be ordained by God no matter how evil he may be, and he was evil. He was a nut case and would have been kicked out of any church today. He was a pervert of young boys and practiced beastility on dead animals, after he had rolled around in their blood. Look up King James on the internet. You’ll also learn about the Geneva Bible.

          3. mallen11 says

            I have not idea what you are trying to say or you are mixed up. Only those who believe in Jesus Christ as their savior have their sins forgiven at the moment of salvation. If the believer sins after salvation they can confess, acknowledge (1 John 1:9) their sin to God the Father and be forgiven for those sins since they were judged by God the Father the last three hours Christ was on the cross taking our sins on Him. Unbelievers sins are not forgiven since they can’t confess their sins to God because they do not belong to God but to themselves and are destined to h*ll for their unbelief; not sin. As I said before, I know about King James and even though he was a very evil person, God used him to provide the Bible in English many more would be able to read it.

          4. Maynard Merrell says

            I use the Geneva Bible which existed many years before the King James version. Because James didn’t like the Geneva Bible because it didn’t compliment his reign he revised it

          5. suzyshopper says

            And your proofs that he revised it, verses please?I would like too see those revisions for myself. I’m well versed in the KJV, I have both a Greek and Hebrew lexicon too cross reference ,as of yet I’ve not cogme across anything in the KJV that would cause me too pause in concern that it might not be right.

          6. Maynard Merrell says

            Your answers can be found in the information I gave you. Use you’re internet search for “Geneva Bible” and “King James I.” What do you think version means?

          7. Maynard Merrell says

            Since I have studied the Communist movement since 1960, I know that the Communist established a front called the World Council of Churches. They changed scripture and meanings, and in America the created another front known as the National Council of Churches the teaching of which not be trusted. Examples: “God is Dead.” “If Christ was alive today he would be a socialist.” The Communist will pervert the Bible even more so. The communist said that they would use our christian principles to defeat us. Too much forgiveness can bring defeat (Love thy neighbor) Had the Hebrews killed all the pagans (men, women and children) as God had ordered them tlo do, would there be evil in this world today?

          8. Maynard Merrell says

            What does the word “revised” mean?

          9. suzyshopper says

            God is perfect he said their was a penalty for sin, he said their was no forgiveness of sins without the shedding of blood the atonement that Christ provided.do u actually think a sinful person should be let into a perfect sinless place REALLY ? God says who are we too question his ways his thoughts.As for King James God says that’s he’s in control of even evil ppl and can use them too fulfill his purpose.You do not see sin in the same way God does u are sinful he isn’t,he is holy, and reserves the right of judgement too himself.

          10. suzyshopper says

            So because u belive a Calvinist is wrong in limited atonement u don’t believe in election or predestination which is in the Bible?There are many many verses in the Bible where Jesus had said that he chose ppl not the other way around. I can give u a verse right off the bat can u explain this ,Matt 25:34(Then shall the King say to them on his right hand,Come ye blessed of my father,inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD. Last time I checked we weren’t here when the foundation of the world was laid . There are verses all over the Bible talking about God choosing us and not the other way around, I’ve just never found anyone who would debate limited atonement, or election as the Calvinist would call it. The reason I choose too believe that God does the choosing is because he says it the Bible, as a matter of fact he says there is none righteous no not one, there is NONE that SEEKTH GOD, so how does anyone become saved , if their are none that will seek God, of their own accord, it’s because they were chosen before the foundation of the world and written in the book of life?I have verses that contradict your verses. As for calvanism I can understand why some ppl would not want too believe in it, because it takes the control totally out of their hands and puts it totally in Gods hands, and that’s a scary thought for some. I have studied the Bible extensively for anything I could possibly find that would prove limited atonement or election,was wrong and I can only come up with the conclusion, that God chooses a person before their even born. And believe u me I have struggled with the doctrine of predestination election, limited atonement , read everything I could possibly find too try and prove it wrong but I keep coming back to clear verses where it says God does the choosing. I think a lot of ppl ignore the verses on limited atonement or the Calvinist view, on purpose, because those verses don’t fit in with what they want too believe.If the saved were written in the book of life before the foundations of the world were laid, would that not mean that God chose them?Care too discuss with me,or will u write me off like others have done, because they don’t agree with what I say?

          11. suzyshopper says

            Not only that I also struggled with the thought that God was and unjust God, because what would happen too those who lived in remote jungles who never heard the word of God, and what about those physically impaired, where are their chances too be saved, but once I understood election it all became clear.And while I’m on the subject what about the babies who die in the womb, they can’t repent and believe , so how will they make it too heaven, their are not two salvation plans one for children and one for adults, and please don’t mention the age of accountability cause I searched the Bible for it, and it’s just not in there?These are all the reasons I believe as a Calvinist does.

      4. Arnold Young says

        You speak the truth! They can dish it out but can’t take it. Just simmpering bullies!

      5. suzyshopper says

        Got that right!

    2. Terry Call says

      Why do you support two “ministers” who are operating their supposedly religious mission to earn a profit for themselves? Nothing but money changers, and we know how Jesus felt about that. Look behind the curtain before you judge.

      1. Maynard Merrell says

        I don’t believe your comment was ment for me.

      2. Mark Clemens says

        This morning I turned on the TV set
        In living color I saw something I’d never forget
        There was a man preaching at me
        Laying on the charm
        He was asking me for a twenty
        With $10,000 hanging off his arm
        He wore designer cloths
        He had a big ole smile on his face,
        He was selling salvation, with a chorus of Amazing Grace…..
        He asked for money, and showing all the signs of wealth……..
        I damn near wrote him a check, then I asked myself……
        Would he wear a pinkey ring?
        Would he drive a fancy car?
        Would his wife be draped in diamonds and furs?
        Would his dressing room have a star
        If Jesus came back tomorrow, there’s something I’d like to know…….
        Would Jesus wear a Rolex on his Television Show…….???????
        Would Jesus be political, if he came back to earth?
        Would he have a mansion in Palm Springs?
        Would he hide his worth?
        Would he take money from poor folks
        When he comes back again
        Will he admit to talking to the preachers who claim they been talking to him?
        Just ask your self……
        Would he wear a pinkey ring?
        Would he drive a fancy car?
        Would his wife be draped in diamonds and furs?
        Would his dressing room have a star?
        If he came back tomorrow, there’s something I’d like to know……
        Would Jesus wear a Rolex on his Television Show?

    3. Mark Clemens says

      You never hear of a Mosque having to perform homosexual weddings………..

    4. suzyshopper says

      They want that title because somehow in their eyes,they think it will change the way ppl see and feel about them. They want too destroy what’s left of the family unit. They give u the crap about equality and rights, in civil unions they have the same rights as marrieds, the y just want too change that definition of marriage. Like somehow if activist judges give the title marriage too them that it’s going too change anything for them, then what already is.

  7. Yadja says

    I can remember hearing preachers talking about end times and how women would go to women and men to men and all the other dire warnings. Then I became a student of Ancient History and Religions and read for myself. It is the way of things that religion will come under fire by those who don’t want to hear anything that would point a finger at their chosen lifestyle. If you don’t hear it you don’t think about what you are doing.

    Personally I don’t care what people do in their private lives but when you insist I go along with your lifestyle and you insist I accept your marriage et al then I get fired up and I won’t be forced into your world. Even if you get laws that protect you and give you all the rights you think your entitled to, you won’t change me or my attitudes they will remain in my heart as will the word of the Almighty.

    You can take the Bible and Biblical texts away, you can burn them, it has been done before but you can’t take it away from my heart and I know so many verses in the New Testament that you will never take my Faith from me.

    Knock yourselves out.

    1. loran says

      Did you ever wonder why MAN has this need to worship something? Down through the ages, man has always worshipped something, be it the sun, flying dogs or the earth itself. I personally believe that God, our creator, has placed a little bit of himself in each one of us to give us the reason and desire to search for him.

      1. Yadja says

        That is what He said that our bodies are the Temple and yes He is with us always.

        In nursing we learn this, humankind composed of Body, Mind and Spirit and all have to be taken into consideration when treating a patient.

        I worked Hospice and been there for many a crossing over……my heart stopped 3 times and I was paddled back……….it is real…..it exists……and we are never alone at the hour.

        1. LastGasp says

          I have been over and brought back also. There is a purpose in everything.

          1. Yadja says

            Indeed and nobody goes until their time. Through war and civilian nursing I have come to understand this explicitly. If the guy next to you dies and your alive was not your time. I believe we are given every opportunity to get this life right and we face many challenges that are put there for a reason no matter how awful and terrible they are.

            Can look back now on the stages in my life, the many paths I took, the many careers and see there was a thread through all of them that led me where I am today. Now I can see nothing was an accident.

          2. LastGasp says

            True wisdom comes with age and experience,,,,as long as your mind stays open.

          3. Yadja says

            And your heart to that which is worthy and good for you and you understand the difference.

            Time wasted on evil or fools is not time well spent.

      2. al.k says

        Except the professing atheists, they actually know of the Lord, but claim to be atheists so they are not accountable for their lifestyle, there are very few that I have ever known that were decent people that never believed in the Lord, God had to prove to them he exists, the fact that nature was created as it is, should be proof enough, but for the most part, most of these type people are out to use the system for their own special interests with no conscience of any wrong doings.

        1. paulnordin@aol.com says

          I am an atheist but believe very strongly that God does exist for those who believe in Him. My lifestyle is essentially that of a devout God believer. I think that the Bible has a lot of errors, compared to reality. That’s ok though, as long as you are not obsessive wrt the details. And yes, I am waiting for God to prove to the world that He exists. Would you al.k tell Him that in your next prayer?

          1. al.k says

            Thanks for the response and I will be happy to do as you asked, I was born Mormon, and seen a lot of deception, those people are no different than any others, many are Sunday Church members, once out of the mormons, the Lord started leading me, I have been walking with him 40yrs. He has healed me of three of four hernias besides many others that I have ministered to including some Palestinians in Israel, most of them were healed instantly, I am not into organized religion and don’t fit in many churches because I chose to listen to the Lord, most churches want to be in control and are threatened by someone who walks and talks with Him.

          2. marshmil says

            Enjoyed your post paulnordin. You note that your “lifeSTYLE is essentially that of a devout God believer.” I take that to mean you put on a “front” to deceive the world.
            God left “proof” all around us that He exists but if you choose to wear blinders so you don’t “see” it then that’s your choice. Recall the statements made by passers by at the crucifixion of Yeshua (Jesus). They mocked him with statements like “IF you are she Savior of the world then come down from the cross and we’ll believe you.” God does not play games. Read Psalm 19: 1-3. I hope the scales fall from your eyes so you can see clearly what millions of us have been viewing for centuries. God runs on His terms, not ours. Suggestion: you talk to him directly. Tell Him you want to know Him. Note what happens. 🙂

          3. paulnordin@aol.com says

            I do not utilize “fronts”. What you see is what you get. Wrt God, I tried to connect for many, many, many years with no results whatsoever. I am still receptive but do not expect to hear from Him, simply because He does not exist (except in the minds of those who believe in Him). And the Bible provides ample evidence that God (if He exists) does play games. Please read about the murders of Annanias and Sapphira and explain how that is not a political move on the part of God. .

          4. marshmil says

            They lied. That’s false witness. But you did read it in “The Book.” Good for you. Have it your way. Good day!

          5. mallen11 says

            You seem to have an open mind regarding God but you will never find the reality of God until you believe what Jesus Christ did for you on the cross. The Bible says:

          6. Blanche R Payne says

            Excuse me, but you just said that you are an atheist and at the same time a God believer. How can this be? It sounds like a contradiction in terms.

          7. paulnordin@aol.com says

            No, what I believe is that (1) there is no God, no Satan, no heaven, no hell. And (2) for those that believe in God, He does exist (for them, in their own minds). Eventually, science will show us what created the universe. It was not God. Humans need answers and a God “theory” provides answers. Of course, there was a Jesus Christ but He was not the son of a nonexistent God. Jesus was a very nice person who believed in God and also believed that He (Jesus) was the son of God. End of story. We are born, we live and then we die.

          8. suzyshopper says

            Science will never be able to show what brought the world into being, that was in Gods hands. As for atheists, when I look at the world and the intricacies of the human body, and how one species supports another species, I have too come too the conclusion that their was a plan behind it , for me too believe any other way would be ludicrous.I think it’s crazy, and unintelligent, too think some Big Bang theory made all the different planets, how the sun is not positioned too close too the earth, too burn it up, set up the animals and food chain, separated the dry land from the seas, and somehow the first man appeared out of NOTHING. Too believe all that,takes and extreme leap of faith in my opinion.Not only that,how exactly was mans body created, the first man, we know that it takes a mans sperm and a woman’s egg too create a human being, how does that happen by accident. I think it’s ridiculous too think that man just popped up on the scene all by himself.Ive never been an athesist, but I guess in a way u could call me and agnostic, I had questions too, and douts, but I prayed and kept reading the Bible, I was persistent, probably more than most.You know really I wish sometimes I could believe that when u die it’s the end, than I wouldn’t agonize over my unsaved family, or friends, so much, but because I know the truth, I can’t lie too myself, and pretend any other way.

          9. Christopher J. Doran says

            I’ll be happy to, but why should God “wait” on you or anyone else? He wants us to come to Him, but a person who won’t do that, is effectively an a-theist, someone without God. I challenge you to take a step of faith and say something like, “OK, if you’re there show me,” as a supplicant, not a critic. Here’s what will happen if you do that: he will work though various circumstances to get you reading that Bible, I guarantee it. You won’t understand a lot of it, but so what? It’s not what you don’t understand that is important, it is to make an a priori commitment (a fancy word for faith.) You will meet people, receive correspondence, watch a tv show and everything will line up, till you’ll think you’re going crazy and it will be as if you find this book you are reading seems to be reading you–not a comfortable process.

            I hesitate to say more because it’s your life, and your decision and many of us
            christians get over-zealous in trying to move people along. Shame on us. I do believe that if you do this, you will know what to do at the proper time. Then it will be up to you to respond because you have free will to accept or reject. God proves Himself to the world every day, through decisions made by people just like you and me. By the way, I can recommend this process because I walked through it myself, not out of Atheism but out of New Age, and it rocked my world, So, I’ll pray for you–you’re in for a ride! God bless.

          10. suzyshopper says

            Excuse me if I may jump in your conversation,about your question you waiting for God too prove that he exists.God in the Bible says that thru creation he reveals himself to all mankind,not only that, God reveals himself too those he wishes too indivually,God says that faith in his son and his atoning death is what saves us. The Bible says that we are saved by grace thru faith, so what is faith then, faith is believing in something u can’t see. If God were too prove himself to the world, their would be no need for faith.Because genuine faith is believing without seeing.Not only that, Jesus revealed himself to the Jewish scribes in his day,but even tho he performed miracles and raised the dead they still didn’t believe, why do u think that was? You will not believe till u are given the gift of faith, no amount of proof will suffice, to and unbeliever, until u are given the faith too believe, and God says that faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. So if u really want too prove too yourself that God exists, maybe u should grab a hold of a Bible and start reading, and maybe than u too will be granted the gift of faith.

          11. al.k says

            Paul, I will ask the Lord to reveal him self to you, but as long as you believe you are not an atheist, that is someone who thinks we just came on the scene by some big bang theory, Having had Him speak to me on many occasions and been healed of several things along with some that are medically proven, but will suggest you ask him and read the word, it will fill you, I don’t speak of any church being the way, just share the word, as you learn to ask and trust, He will reveal himself to you, then you will know, Ok thanks.

      3. Doris C says

        I dont look on it as a need to worship something. Its more of honoring my creator and thanking him for what he has given me that cannot be taken away because its in my being.

        1. loran says

          That’s because you live in modern times. But place yourself back a thousand years or more and somewhere there wasn’t the Bible. They had the desire to thank something or someone for their blessings. Some were not so nice as in human sacrifices. The point is, the desire was there.

          1. stephanie wilson says

            i call it the God-shaped hole in all of us, that only He can fill.

          2. Rob Joyner says

            Correction: only a god of some kind can fill.

          3. stephanie wilson says

            only one God the others are false.

      4. Maynard Merrell says

        Loran: I, too, believe that God placed a little bit of himself inside each of us- our inner spirit, better known as our conscious, which lets us know when we are about to do, or are doing something right or wrong. Right or wrong is determined by God, not by any group. God segregated the people into various nations, the people of which could create their own moral values. Those whoes values were different could move to a nation of compatible values, but don’t try to change the values of that other nation or there will be trouble. Our country is trying to change the moral values in the middle east which requires a change in their form of governments- mostly democracies. They don’t like that and are fighting back.

        This is also what many of us in the Tea Party movement are also doing, by tying to restore our Constitutional Republic, by opposing the socialist democrats and many socialist republican leaders. I think the Lord gave us a maximum of freedom an a minimum of security, which we must provide for ourselves, when a our government refuses to defend us, or becomes unresponsive to our need for defense, or when we allow our government to become a oppressive as we are now doing. This opens the doors to such tyrants as ISIS.

    2. chelseachablis says

      You tell ’em Yadja!!!….Well said!!…..You’r absolutely right about most people not wanting to be held accountable for their lifestyles!! When there’s a book of rules and regulations out there..that even warns of the punishment if those laws are broken….people don’t want to read it! They’re too afraid they will have to give up their parties and the sex and the other over-accesses they’ve become so accustomed to. And a lot of Christians only want to be Christians THEIR WAY!!! I must admit…I’m guilty of that one myself….and I don’t like myself because of it. But I pray every day…I read the Holy Scripture every day….and I try! That’s all I can do really….is try. But I won’t turn away from the TRUTH…..the same truth that most folks are so afraid of. Even if it’s a sub-conscience fear…it stops them from learning about it and living it. I know your aware that our God preached about love and forgiveness……and what a fantastic place the earth would be if we would only live the way Jesus asked us to!!! And I don’t recall seeing anywhere in the Holy Bible that tells us to kill all those who reject Gods law. But apparently the Koran does just that. And the idiots who follow this moronic ideology have been completely brainwashed since birth apparently. And it’s scary, to say the least, that even in this day & age of social media that people are STILL believing it!!! There’s a ton of evil out there…and satan is working over-time because even HE knows that God is coming back for His people very, VERY soon!!! So I’m gonna stick with the true WORD OF THE ONLY LIVING GOD…and if the GLBTG community…and the atheist’s don’t like it…..well that’s THEIR LOSS!! And I’ll be praying for them to come to Jesus for forgiveness and salvation before it’s too late.

      1. Jim says

        Would you please tell me when God is coming back:”…very, VERY soon!!!” I have been fooled before and do not want to be fooled again.

        1. Yadja says

          My dear He said He would come like a thief in the night and nobody would know the time or the date.

          1. Jim says

            Yes Iknow what He said, but you said:”…very, Very soon!!!” so I thought you had some inside information.

          2. Yadja says

            I don’t think O is going to get away with too much more I do believe he is going to get something big coming his way……better than his October surprise…..or maybe it is just wishful thinking.

          3. makrov says

            You are interesting. I’m a Bible student (75 yo) Graduated in 1968 and pastored several churches. In the early 80’s I was mentoring a student and I gave him my view. Here it is for what it is worth. I believe the Lords return could be between 2023 and 2029. Here are my reasons. 1988 was the 50th year of tribulation (50,50’s) The next will be in 2038. There will be 7 years of tribulation before He comes to set up His Kingdom.(Rev:} This world seems to be becoming the mess that the Bible talks about before He returns. You may laugh at this if you want or take it with a grain of salt, but this is the conclusion I have come up with after many years of study. I know that I could be completely wrong . It should happen in September or October. Harvest time, because of the seven feasts. Each of them happened at a correct time and this is the FEAST of Harvest

          4. Jim says

            Thanks.

          5. jimwilson81 says

            While I respect your belief, you need to be careful with trying to predict Christ’s return and the end of the world. Even Jesus said He did not know, only the Father knows. You made your case very logical and your reasoning was good, but God can not be put in a box. Too many people do that. So many historians try to argue that all the Gospels were written after the destruction of Jerusalem because of the predictions He made. To me that makes no sense, especially when you accept Jesus as the Messiah. As the Messiah, He has three roles; King, High Priest and Prophet. Besides, Paul was writing less than 15 years after Jesus’ earthly ministry and there is evidence that Mark’s Gospel may have been written within those same years. Luke’s Gospel was written before Paul’s death because Acts only concludes with his imprisonment, not his death. Why would Luke do that? To me, it is because Paul was still alive when he wrote bot the Gospel and The Acts of the Apostles.

          6. makrov says

            I thank you for your opinion but you may keep it to yourself. Understanding scripture IS my business not yours. When I want an opinion I’ll ask for it.

          7. jimwilson81 says

            I studied to be a priest for 7 years with a B.A, in Religion and 99 hours in Theology. I also studied Koine Greek and Hebrew during my years of studies . I think I understand scripture very well so it is my business as well.

          8. makrov says

            Congratulations. I have a BA and a BS and 13.5 years of study and 15 years as pastoral service. I’ll wait for you to catch up on your studies.

          9. jimwilson81 says

            Even though I was not ordained, I have done many things with my life since I left in 1983. I served in the Navy from 1970 though 1974 and again in 1991 through 1997 (Vietnam & Desert Storm) went back to school and became a geriatric nurse. I am a leader in my local church being an extraordinary minister from 1985 to the present and well as a Choir member, Commentator, Lector, Eucharistic Minister and an officer in the Knights of Columbus. I think we are about even.
            I am sorry. It is starting to sound like we are in a pissing match. 🙂
            No disrespect to you. Like I said you are really good and wise and deserve respect. All I ask is the same from you.

          10. headonstraight says

            Hey, you self-important, arrogant egotist–this is a discussion forum. Neither jimwilson nor anyone else on here is required to serve up credentials to qualify as a participant. Posting opinions is at the heart of what this kind of forum is about. Keeping one’s opinions to oneself is not part of the program, you pedant!

          11. makrov says

            Apparently I don’t get an opinion? But I can be criticized for a study that I have been doing for years? Your opinion of me doesn’t fit so you may keep it to yourself, Thank you

          12. headonstraight says

            Of course you are entitled to an opinion, but forum decorum dictates that you should not tell another participant to “keep it to yourself,” which is precisely what you did. This forum is a marketplace of ideas and you have not been assigned to dictate what intellectual merchandise may or may not be placed on display.

            As to your long-term program of study, just find a little humility and recognize that it is not the length of time one studies a subject that matters; it is the quality of the study and the analytical tools employed. You arrogantly wrote, “Understanding scripture IS my business not yours. Well, makrov, understanding scripture is not the exclusive province of some privileged elite. Get over your pompous self.

          13. makrov says

            If you go back, he complained I should not have my opinion and I told HIM to keep his.to him self. There are rules to interpretation of scripture that one learns from from studies in Christian college and seminaries. Just because he was a worker in a church does not necessary qualify. I write to department heads of christian colleges about these subjects and I have no problem with them. “Understanding scripture IS my business” I have been in the ministry since 1960’s and IT IS MY business. He wasn’t in it as a living, so it was not his business. I also said that anyone could take my understanding or leave it. That IS NOT BEING ARROGANT..

          14. headonstraight says

            Rot. Every Christian has the obligation to study and interpret scripture. Some may do it better than others, but the personal responsibility to “Study to show thyself approved of Go…rightly dividing the word of truth” applies to all Christians, not to just some clerical class or some “anointed” or “ordained” elite. The corrupt Catholic Church in the Dark Ages denied the “laity” (and here I make no distinctions between clergy and laity; Christians are all of a “royal priesthood”) even the right to have access to the Word of God, let alone study it for themselves, and we all know what kinds of abominations that fomented. I am not a minister, but I have as good or better a command of hermeneutics as most graduates of seminaries and hold my own quite well, thank you, in discussions with such persons.

          15. suzyshopper says

            U hit the nail right on the head , the Bible says the Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth and bring it too our remembrance,These college degrees seminaries dont make u any smarter than a person who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit teaching him.Im am constantly learning by reading Gods word, not by getting a degree or being in the ministry, I have the KJV and a Hebrew and Greek lexicon and that’s all I need too interpret the Bible, and the Holy Spirit of course!

          16. suzyshopper says

            U are absolutely right in what u said,and u called him on it , his attitude will do him no favor in trying too convert the unbelievers.

          17. makrov says

            I never set a date . The Bible says we will not know the Day or the hour but the times and the seasons and that is what I described. Maybe you need to read more and understand. This is NOT my opinion only. http://www.inquisitr.com/1555365/ebola-bible-end-times-and-end-of-the-world-prophecy-answered-in-biologists-book/

          18. headonstraight says

            Thus another “prophet”, contaminated by the Scofieldian-Darbyite premillennialist myth, doth discourse on the end times!

          19. suzyshopper says

            You sound like a person I used too listen too many yrs ago, he was a devout Christian, ppl would call in too his show too ask questions, he would point them too the biblical texts too back up his answers. But then somewhere along the line he started doing the same stuff you’re talking about, trying too predict the end maybe by using dates and times of things that happened long ago. It finally led him too make 3 or 4 erroneous predictions of when the world would end, the dates came and passed, and his ministry was destroyed.Thats why I don’t believe in date setting, specially because the Bible says no one could no the day or hr of the end,not even the son, what I found most puzzlng about that pronouncement was , how could Jesus who was God in the flesh,not know when the end was?Ppl say that a lot of horrible things will happen before the end,but I’ve read a few verses where it says that life will be going on as normal and then sudden destruction. I think a lot of ppl sometimes mix up symbolic things with literal things.

          20. makrov says

            Thank you for your interest. I have never in my ministry preached about the return of Christ. The Bible says that we will not know the day but the times and the seasons. After 9 intensive years of academic studies and attending conferences and listening others on the subject, I came to this conclusion in 1975. I shared this with an associate whom was attending a Bible college in Ore. He is now the the head of theology at a Calif. university. I still see this as about the right time because the dominoes seem to be falling into place. We have a muslim in the peoples house and ISIS is invading Syria and Iraq killing Christians just for their faith. As you questioned my thoughts I thought it interesting 911 comes to mind. Interesting that that date was picked since it is the beginning of harvest. I live in the Northwest and most of the fields are already gone. I think about our Religious freedoms that are being challenged and the gay marriages being forced on ministers who do not agree with doing it.
            I do not live to far from Coeur D’ Alene who the article is about. We are losing our Religious left and right, I hope you have a faith in Christ so we can continue this on the other side of life. Love in Christ.

          21. sam says

            What denomination are you Jim?

          22. Yadja says

            LOLOL nope just live day to day but go to the New Testament and look-up all the verses that tell what end-times will look like. You might recognize a few things.

        2. al.k says

          It’s really amazing how dumb some people are, you share anything about the Lord, they put you on trial, the real question is a personal relationship, those who really have a personal relationship don’t have to come against a testimony, they can bear witness to it, look at the ones in church going through all the motions and will pick your pocket on the way out, these are professors, they profess the Lord to get you to drop your guard so they can fleece you. as far as the same sex being forced on us, it’s a violation of our rights, they want our rights to cater to their perversion, same sex relationship is not natural by any means and to force it on anyone is a violation not only by the constitution, but our own personal rights, not to be infringed on by the perverts.

          1. Donna Hardin says

            Yet when they talk about their Atheism or other NON-Christian beliefs, we are suppose to keep our mouths shut so as NOT to offend “them”! Hypocrites!

          2. Christopher J. Doran says

            Talk to me. I am a deacon who has taught and studied the word for over 30 years.

          3. suzyshopper says

            I call that the show church, the ppl who sit Sunday after Sunday constantly learning but never quite coming too the truth.

        3. mallen11 says

          We have no idea when the Lord Jesus Christ will return. I could be in our lifetime or a thousands years from now. Every generation thinks it will be their lifetime and it is a wonderful thought. It is good to study eschatology and know that part of the future but we live in the world today and need to know what our responsibilities are as believers in glorifying our Lord. That is why we need to consistently study the whole Bible (especially the NT) to learn God’s will for our lives. This way we will grow spiritually and have that wonderful relationship with Him through His written Word. Most people don’t realize that they need to be in fellowship before they read or study God’s Word and that is the key to the CWL using 1 John 1:9. If we don’t, we are only reading or studying academically and it cannot get into our human spirit so we can apply it to our lives.

          1. Jim says

            Thanks but I did not ask you.

          2. mallen11 says

            I apologize but there are always people who jump in on the comments. If I see comments that go against what the Bible teaches, I will make a comment and no one has to accept it. Know the truth and it will set you free.

          3. suzyshopper says

            There’s no need for u too apologize, this is an open forum, anyone is free too jump in with an opinion, and don’t let anyone tell u any different , matter fact I just happened in on the on going discussion, and jumped in!

        4. headonstraight says

          Then rely on the scriptures, which say that “No man knoweth the day nor the hour….” when Christ will return. Pay no heed to the crowd that is always to be found saying, The end is near!”

        5. Christopher J. Doran says

          Don’t worry about it. Be about the Master’s business joyfully, secure in the knowledge that He is near.

      2. Yadja says

        I am far from Saintly although I did want to be a nun but my mother said sorry kid your not gonna make it your too passionate and too earthbound…..she was right. I have been to every church under the sun trying to figure out where I belong but what I found I don’t need a church or a pastor all I need is communion with the Almighty and talking to Him as I am you and I am on the right path.

        I don’t ask forgiveness for what I know I will do again and I am doing best I can with what I have learned.

        Thank you.

        1. Donna Hardin says

          Beautifully stated!!!

          1. Christopher J. Doran says

            You are both hypocrites. Come on in to the church and stop making tired “waa waa, they they” excuses, which you are using to justify your own sloth and nasty sins. Maybe that hypocritical church down the street needs you! But no, you’d rather eat spiritual bon bons and watch false teachers bloviate about how God will bless us, ka ching ka ching while hundreds of Christians are being slaughtered, and who is on their knees for them? GET UP and join your fellow hypocrites, and miracle of miracles, you may actually learn to love some of us. If you are not actively engaged in a local body of Christ, you are unprofitable servants and ought to be ashamed of yourselves. Maybe not as beautifully stated as the above gossip, but as a fellow hypocrite, I am being deliberately provocative because I love you enough to warn you that there is a judgment of our works by Christ coming, not for salvation but for our works here, and Oh, Lord, there were so many hypocrites in the church, so I just loved nature and facebook, aren’t I wonderful? NO! your rewards are in danger. I know this will infuriate you–fine take it out on me, but in the name of Jesus LEARN TO LOVE THOSE WHO ARE HARD TO LOVE. THAT IS NOT JUST FOR EVANGELISM, IT IS FOR THE MEMBERS TO MEMBERS, SO ONE DAY GOD CAN SILENCE PRINCIPALITIES AND POWERS BY SHOWING FORTH THE GLORY OF HIS GRACE IN KNITTING ALL THE CRAZY MEMBERS (OF WHOM I AM THE CHIEF) TOGETHER IN LOVE AND UNITY, A SPIRITUAL HOUSE THAT WILL OVERCOME THE GATES OF HELL. OH, AND WE ARE HIS BRIDE, TOO. DON’T YOU PEOPLE WANT TO BE PART OF THAT?? You think maybe it wounds Christ’s infinite heart of love? TO SEE US BITING AND DEVOURING ONE ANOTHER, I’M pleading with this entire thread, STOP USING GOD’S WORD TO BLUDGEON YOUR FELLOW BELIEVERS AND BE HUMBLE ENOUGH TO ADMIT WE NEED HIM AND ALLOW HIM TO FORM HIS CHARACTER IN US??. NO LOVE, NO FAITH. NOW GO AND DO LIKEWISE!!

          2. Donna Hardin says

            No I am not angry-just shaking my head. I am a Christian but now I see why some people are turned off by them especially from your little sermon here when using the approach you just used. My point was both sides should be able to live the way they believe(btw I am not a judge of anyone only God is) without being bashed by the other! I said the word Hypocrite because one side accuses the other of the very same things yet no one wants to sit back and admit that we all are guilty of doing some of the very same things we ask others not to do! (referring to BOTH DEMS and REPUBS!) I am not certain where you get off preaching down at me but it’s hard to embrace someone like you and Deacon or not-I know my own heart and GOD and HE is my only Father and judge. You need a rest from your high and mighty pulpit! I won’t respond to you again.

          3. suzyshopper says

            I have a question too ask u, if christians are to be judged for our works, why does the Bible say, that God works thru us too do his will and good pleasure, if it is God workin thru us, while should we be rewarded, for something he’s doing?

        2. Btty says

          Sounds like we are sisters. 😉 I believe the same and have studied many churches just to end up saying I don’t need a church to worship my dear Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. He hears my prayers and have answered my prayers. The answers weren’t always the ones I wanted but they are the ones I needed. God knows best.

          1. Doris C says

            Where more than two are congregated is good enough.I love my church and the people in it but I cant go every week most of the year. However the man in charge sends the sermon when I miss. But God is with us anyay. Some churches have gone too far over into politics to even be worth hearing.I wish Billy Graham was out speking still.

          2. Btty says

            Me to Doris. I love Billy Graham. What a wonderful man of God. He has inspired many including me.

          3. headonstraight says

            If lost sinners at a Billy Graham assembly should ask, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”–What would Billy tell them?

            He SHOULD tell them the same thing the Apostle Peter told those lost sinners in Acts 2 to do when they asked the same anguished question.

            But Billy does not tell them to do what Peter told those lost sinners to do; he tells them to make a “decision for Christ” and ask Jesus into their hearts.

            Peter told lost sinners this:

            “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for remission of your sins….” (Acts 2:38)

            Why doesn’t Billy Graham’ preach the same gospel that Peter preached?

          4. Btty says

            Why are you asking me? Why don’t you ask him or his son? Frankly I don’t get your point? Are you trying to say he doesn’t do good works and hasn’t brought many, many sinners to God? Because if so your just plain wrong. I do have a book he wrote where he says you should be baptized and Billy Graham is always saying you are saved through Jesus Christ. So, I’m not really sure I understand what your trying to say. Just because you haven’t heard Billy Graham say: “”Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for remission of your sins….” (Acts 2:38)
            Doesn’t mean he hasn’t said it.

          5. headonstraight says

            He simply has not TAUGHT it. He resolutely denies that baptism is for remission of sins. He has bought into one of the biggest lies that Satan has ever perpetrated. The notion that baptism is not essential to salvation arose in the Reformation era as an extreme and erroneous over-reaction the Catholic Church’s extreme emphasis on works. But baptism is not a work of merit; it is simply a part of the sinner’s acceptance in faith of the salvation given by God’s grace. Read Romans 6:1-10 as though you had never read it before and ask yourself, “What does this teach me about baptism?” And do not be mislead by those who tell you that those verses treat baptism as only some kind of symbolic thing. It is indeed symbolic, but it is much more than that. See also Galatians 3:26-27, I Peter 3:21, Acts 22:16, and Ephesians 5: 25-27.

          6. Btty says

            I will read the scriptures. Let me see if I’m understanding correctly. You think the guy has done a disservice by not teaching that you have to be baptized? I just think baptism is an act to wash away our sin and start with a clean slate. Your accepting God’s will and from the point on your going to follow the way of God. It doesn’t mean you won’t sin because we all will and do. But we pray and ask for forgiveness and try not to do it again. Having said that I’ve seen people sin like crazy from Monday to Saturday and then go to church on Sunday and think all is well. Then they do it all over again.

          7. headonstraight says

            You say, ” I just think baptism is an act to wash away our sin and start with a clean slate.”

            Well, the scriptures teach just that, but Billy Graham does not.
            I never said or implied that baptism would somehow immunize anyone from future sinning, because we all are sinners and, as hard as we might try, we DO sin. Someone who willfully and constantly sins like crazy all week long, as you describe, is not “walking in the light, as He is in the light” (I John 1:7).

          8. Btty says

            So what is your thoughts about Billy Graham? Hearing what you said I still admire and like the man very much. No one that brings that many people to God is a bad person and I believe God is proud of him and will be happy to welcome him into Heaven. As they say no one is perfect. If not teaching about baptism is his only sin wow I would take that.

          9. headonstraight says

            I frankly do not know how much plainer I can make it to you, Btty. You yourself said this: “I just think baptism is an act to wash away our sin and start with a clean slate.” And I have told you truthfully that Billy Graham does not believe that baptism has anything to do with forgiveness of sins.

            That means that Billy is not truly telling his audiences what they must do to be saved. He did NOT tell the lost souls in his huge stadium audiences what the apostle Peter told those lost souls who beseeched him, saying, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” Peter, answering them directly, said, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins….” In failing to reveal the full gospel plan of salvation, Billy Graham has deceived many and placed their souls in jeopardy. Failing to teach the truth about baptism is no small thing, Btty and Billy Graham fails to preach the truth about baptism.

          10. Btty says

            I think your going to have quite a surprise when you die. I would bet that some people you think will be in Heaven won’t be there and some you think won’t get there will be there. Frankly your BS about Billy Graham bores the hell out of me. So say no more.

          11. headonstraight says

            Suit yourself with that evasive response, Btty. Maybe one day you and others will learn to actually make substantive comments instead of deflecting as you have done. Are you so confused that you can claim to believe that, ” …baptism is an act to wash away our sin and start with a clean slate” and yet endorse someone (Graham) who teaches that baptism is NOT for the remission of sins? Does your right hand really know what your left hand is doing?.

          12. Btty says

            I’m not willing to slam a man of God. I have never heard him say what you say he says about baptism. But just for fun I’m going to research it. If he says baptism is NOT for remission of sins then what does he say it’s for? I really would like to know how you know this about Graham? I hinted at it before but youI answered with: “I frankly do not know how much plainer I can make it to you, Btty.” So please try to answer the question. Have you been to every meeting? Have you talked to him personally? Again I feel he has done a lot of good, so hopefully we can agree to disagree and leave it at that. I don’t want a conversation to continue that will end badly because I’am getting tired of debating something where no proof is given. Said respectfully of course.

          13. headonstraight says

            The proof you seek; from the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association’s own web pages:

            http://billygraham.org/answer/is-baptism-necessary-for-salvation/

            Q: Is baptism necessary for salvation?

            A: Mr. Graham has stated: “I believe baptism is important, and I have been baptized. But I think we violate the Scriptures when we make baptism the prime requirement for salvation … Paul’s central theme was Christ and His saving power. Although he spoke of baptism, he said: ‘I thank God that I baptized none of you … lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name’ (1 Corinthians 1:14-15).”

            “Baptism is a conclusive act of obedience and witness to the world that we are Christ’s. I believe in it wholeheartedly. In our crusades we don’t baptize because we feel that this should be done by the local pastors—and that if I baptized, some people would say they had been baptized by me, and that would be putting the emphasis on the wrong person. To one who has received Christ, baptism is a necessary and meaningful experience. But, I must say with Paul: ‘Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel’ (1 Corinthians 1:17).”

            “You may know that we urge immediate and extensive Bible study for each convert. As the Scripture is reviewed, the place of baptism will surely be discovered. If baptism were a requirement for salvation, we would certainly say that. But you couldn’t support that knowing, for example, that the thief on the cross had no opportunity for baptism or church membership. Yet on his confession, paradise was secured. Jesus said to him, ‘Today shalt thou be with me in paradise’ (Luke 23:43).”

            —————————————————————————–
            Billy relies upon Paul’s statement, ‘I thank God that I baptized none of you … lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name’.”

            Paul was not saying anything here about the purpose of baptism. He was dealing with Christians who were forming party loyalties based on their attachment to people like Apollos and Cephas (Peter), who had baptized them. Paul, in looking back at his work in Corinth, was glad to be able to say that he had personally baptized only a couple of the Corinthian Christians because that prevented him from becoming the object of such divisiveness.

            The passage (ICorinthiansactually makes a very strong statement about the importance of baptism. Paul asks a series of rhetorical questions “Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?” The unwritten, but obvious answers to these questions are as follows:

            Q. “Is Christ divided? ”

            A. NO! Your loyalty, then, is to CHRIST.

            ——

            Q. “Was Paul crucified for you?”

            A. Of course not. It is Christ who died for you; you owe Him, not Paul, your undivided love and loyalty.

            ——

            Q. “Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?”

            A. Not if they were baptized in accordance with what is clearly taught in scripture (See Matthew 28:19 and Acts 2:38). If they were baptized in the name of Christ, and we have every reason to believe that they were, then they are Christ’s, not Paul’s,not Cephas’s, and not Apollos’s.

            Paul is in effect asking these divisive Corinthian believers, “Whose are you? To whom do you belong?” And he is saying that they belong to Christ because, among other things, they were baptized in the name of Christ.

            Billy Graham and others who misrepresent the meaning and purpose of baptism fail to see how this passage powerfully portrays the importance of baptism .Billy simply says this:

            “But, I must say with Paul: ‘Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel’ (1 Corinthians 1:17).”

            To isolate that verse from its context, as Billy Graham has done, and then to attempt to use it to “imply that it “proves” something that it does not prove is not being honest with the Word of God.

            As to that old thief on the cross argument Billy makes, consider this. Christ was still alive when he told the thief he would be with Him in paradise. The new covenant in Christ did not begin until after His death (see Hebrews 9: 14-17). That covenant includes Christian baptism, but that covenant was not in effect when that promise was made to the thief on the cross. The thief , when he received the promise of Christ, was living under the old covenant, the law of Moses. He was thus not subject to the command to be baptized in the name of Christ.

          14. Btty says

            Thank you, finally what I wanted. I appreciate the time you spent and the information you shared. Now, I will be doing some reading. I have to say though that I still like the guy and think he did a lot of good. Again I appreciate the time you spent with scripture and explaining everything. I will start reading.

          15. suzyshopper says

            Hate too tell u this but your making it out too sound like a persons salvation is based on and outward act that they do baptism I’m a believer never been baptized and don’t believe from the scriptures that I an unsaved person, because I’ve never been baptized.So if u think u have too be baptized too make it too heaven, their are gonna be a lot of ppl up there, who’ve never been baptized and we could start with all of the Old Testament prophets too boot.

          16. headonstraight says

            Suzy, the Old Testament prophets lived and died under a covenant that is NOT the same covenant under which Christians live today. You can read about that in Hebrews 9. I suggest that you read that entire chapter. If is not very long and it makes it absolutely clear that God dealt with Old Testament prophets and others of that era through a covenant different from the one you and I live under.

            Baptism is where the sinner encounters the death and the blood of Jesus Christ. Read Romans 6:1-10, onsider all tha ti says about baptism and then come back to me and tell me what that means to you.

          17. Ron says

            Thank you “headonstraight.” Well stated, thou good and faithful servant. God Bless you.

          18. suzyshopper says

            I have a question for u about baptism, the thief on the cross as he was dying, Jesus said too him today thou shall be with me in paradise,before he died,if baptism was a condition of his salvation, who baptized him,he was hanging next to Jesus on the cross,nobody did, because baptism doesn’t wash away anyone’s sins, the blood of Christ does?The Bible says, without the shedding of blood their is no REMISSION of sin, not without baptism their is no REMISSON of sin.

          19. Ron says

            The thief was “baptized” by the Power of God which is the Holy Spirit. He was then Begotten of God because he opened his mind and heart to realize this guy Jesus (Yeshua) was actually who he said he was. At that instant the thief’s safety from eternal damnation was assured. Today’s Churchianity confuses the issue of “conversion” making it appear one has to have earthly “church membership” to get into Heaven. No, no, no!
            Satan is a master of deceit and stirs up loads of disinformation.

          20. mallen11 says

            Good reply. I use that too at times. There are men on the battlefield who believed in Jesus Christ and they also went to heaven when they died and were not baptized. I am sure there have been millions of people who have believed but never baptized because it wasn’t available. If God wanted us to be baptized for salvation He would make sure there was plenty of water for anyone who believed. Jesus said “it is FINISHED” — the work of salvation was finished when He died spiritually by taking our sins on Him and THEN He died physically. There is nothing else that can be done for salvation.

          21. suzyshopper says

            Btty u are right it’s and outward show of the faith you’ve come too, nothing more nothing less, other ppl take verses twist them, and try too make it a prerequisite for salvation.There are a few obscure verses that can be twisted to support baptism, and some denominations will tell u must be baptized, for salvation, but other verses in the Bible, numerous verses that are clear, that say faith and repentance is what saves u not the outward act of baptism.

          22. suzyshopper says

            So are u saying if a person has repented and believed if he wasn’t baptitzed he’s not saved?Because if you’re saying that your wrong, the Bible clearly says for by grace are u saved thru faith, not the outward sign of baptism, baptism is just and outward show of faith it can’t add or take away your salvation.

          23. mallen11 says

            I am responding

          24. headonstraight says

            mallen, it simply is wrong and misleading to take the position that baptism in such texts as 1 Peter 3:21 and 1 Cor. 12:13 is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. If that is true, it would make Paul, in the I Corinthians passage, declare that all of the Corinthians were baptized in the Holy Spirit, or had received the Holy Spirit baptism! Who could believe such a thing? It is true of course that all of them had themselves baptized, and in consequence had all received the gift ordinary of the Holy Spirit, common to all Christians (Acts 2:38); but to suppose that those carnal Corinthians had “all” participated in the baptism of the Holy Spirit is untenable.. Of course, the design of many scholars is to get water baptism out of this text altogether; but that is also impossible.

            Similar attempts are made by detractors of water baptism to argue that the teaching of Romans 6: 1-10 is only about baptism of the Holy Spirit. The great majority of Bible scholars and commentators reject this theory, and for good reason. When the New Testament refers to baptism without further explicating the term, it is simply referring to water baptism.

            The first century recipients of apostolic letters understood this. In an earlier post I discussed baptism as set forth in I Cor. 1. Without question, Paul was writing there about water baptism, seeing that he acknowledged baptism being administered by certain named persons in the church at Corinth and wrote nothing at all to imply an operation of the Holy Spirit.. And as I explained earlier, his teaching there was strongly endorsing baptism as something that brought the sinner into union with Christ.

            The Ephesians 5 passage that I cited refers to Christ having cleansed his church “by the “washing of water.” That has to do not with marriage, per se, but with the church having become the fit bride of Christ. And what does that “washing of water” have to do with if not baptism?

            You wrote, concerning 1 Peter 3:21, that the context “also refers to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit at the time of salvation.” I do not find it there. To what part of the context are you referring?

          25. mallen11 says

            I am sorry you believe the way you do but water baptism has absolutely no saving power. Jesus said “It if finished” before He died physically and the entire gift of salvation was completed on the cross. I have done extensive study on this matter and will not be persuaded by anyone against the truth of the Word of God. There is nothing more you can say to me so don’t even try.

          26. headonstraight says

            If the entire gift of salvation was ‘”completed on the cross,” as you say, then why is it necessary for anyone to do or say anything in order to receive salvation? Your statement makes you seem like a universalist–everyone is saved, nobody lost.

            Your problem, mallen, is that you want to define baptism as a “work”, which it decidedly is not, but you still maintain that a sinner MUST DO SOMETHING to receive salvation. He must REPENT; he must BELIEVE. His salvation is conditional upon these active overt states of mind and conscience. Like many others, you dismiss baptism, from salvation because it has certain tangible, physical aspects. That is a bogus criterion, mallen. You accept, as necessary for salvation, belief and repentance, both of which involve active effort–brain work; thought processes and resultant states of mind, while dismissing the passive acceptance of baptism as a “work” and thus not a part of the plan of salvation. Baptism is an element of the penitent sinner’s response in FAITH to the forgiveness God extends through His grace. Here is a little item I wrote up long ago that might help you:
            _______________________________________
            “What must I do to be saved?”

            This question is of monumental importance. It is a question asked by those who are sincerely desire to know the will of God. The Bible records instances where this very question was asked and answered, so it is to the scriptures that we go for the answer to this most important of all questions.

            It might surprise some to learn that in the record of scripture, the question is “answered” before it is asked. The Old Testament prophet Joel, looking to a future that is later fulfilled in the New Testament, wrote this:

            “And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be delivered.“

            There are honest differences of opinion about when certain Old Testament prophecies have been or will be fulfilled, but there is no doubt about the fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy. The scriptures themselves tell us with great specificity just when and under what circumstances “[w]hosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be delivered.”

            In his sermon on the Day of Pentecost following the resurrection of Jesus, Peter, an inspired apostle of Jesus Christ, quotes Joel’s prophetic statement (Acts 2:16,-21) Peter expressly introduces and directly quotes from the words of Joel., concluding with the statement that, “Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

            That statement having been made, it becomes of the utmost importance for the lost sinner to understand just what it means for one to “call upon the name of the Lord”.

            It can not mean simply crying out, “Lord, Lord.” for Jesus Himself said, “Not every one who saith unto me, ‘Lord, Lord’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of ‘my Father which is in heaven.”

            It becomes imperative for the lost sinner to know and to do the will of God–to “call upon the name of the Lord” in the manner in which the Lord, through His word, calls upon him to act.

            In that 2nd chapter of Acts, where Peter recites the prophecy of Joel, he continues his sermon to a conclusion that strikes anguish into the hearts of his audience, for he pronounces this fearsome indictment:

            22-23—“Ye man of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by Him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain.”

            36. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus whom ye have crucified both Lord and Christ

            YOU KILLED THE SON OF GOD! You therefore stand before God in a lost state. Confronted with this condemnation, it is no surprise that Peter’s hearers should cry out in anguish, “Men and brethren, what shall we do”.

            And there can be no question what these condemned sinners meant by that question. They are “pricked in their hearts” and they plead, in great anguish of spirit, Men and brethren, what shall we do”.

            What shall we do to escape the condemnation that we have brought upon ourselves? What shall we do to be saved?

            Asked another way, in light of that prophecy of Joel, they might well have asked, “’HOW may we “call upon the name of the Lord’”

            Before finishing the story of what happened on that occasion, let us turn to the story of another New Testament figure, his lost state, and his ultimate salvation.

            I refer to the Apostle Paul, that one-time No. 1 Public Enemy of Christianity who became perhaps the most successful evangelist of the First Century.

            Paul describes his hot pursuit of Christians in Acts 22:4:

            “And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.”

            You know the story of Paul. Then known as Saul, he was on his way to Damascus to arrest Christians and drag them back to Jerusalem for trial and punishment. You also know how the story of Paul is sometimes described as his being “saved on the road to Damascus.” But if you read the SCRIPTURAL account of Paul’s salvation, you will discover that on that road to Damascus, he did not do that which was necessary in order to be saved. Remember Amos’ prophecy and Peter’s recitation of it, “Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

            Paul discovered on that Damascus road that he was guilty of a very serious thing–namely the persecution of the Son of God. It was there that Jesus asked of Saul this disturbing question, “Saul, Saul, why persecutes thou me?”

            What an indictment! The voice of the Son of God Himself, in those few words, telling Saul that he had it all wrong, so terribly wrong that his actions amounted to the persecution of the Son of God: “I am Jesus of Nazareth whom thou persecutest.”

            Remember back at Pentecost, where those convicted sinners pleaded, Men and brethren, what shall we do.” Paul asks essentially the same question: “What shall I do, Lord?”

            That question, “What must I do to be saved,” is–unfortunately–answered by many today in ways that do not agree with the answers provided in the Word of God.

            Those who would tell us that Paul was saved on the road to Damascus, are telling us that he was saved before he did that which the scriptures tell us one must do to be saved–that he was saved before he called upon the name of the Lord. WHEN did Paul “call upon the name of the Lord“? Let us see what the scriptures say: Acts 22:16:

            And now why tarryest thou? Arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins, calling upon the name of the Lord.”

            Paul’s “calling on the name of the Lord” was thus a thing he did in connection with his baptism. Today, all too often, a truncated false gospel is taught that denies even that baptism is for remission of sins or essential for salvation.

            But when Paul went to Damascus to find out what to do to be saved (Jesus: “It shall be told thee what thou must do.”), he was told to “Arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins, calling upon the name of the Lord.”

            If Ananias had taught what many today teach, he would have explained to Paul that since Paul already had “believed”, he was therefore in a saved state, but if he was in a saved state, he was nevertheless still in a sinful state, since he was told to “Arise…wash away thy sins., calling….” He might have been told to say a “sinner’s prayer” but nowhere in scripture do we find lost sinners being told to recite such a prayer as is so often and erroneously urged upon lost persons as a supposed element of their salvation.

            Let’s go back to Pentecost.

            When those Pentecostians asked “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”, they were not told to say a prayer of any kind. Peter admonished them to “Repent and be baptized, in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins….” They already believed. They believed Peter when he told them that they had crucified the Savior and were in great anguish of spirit for their great sin and guilt. They accepted that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, but that was not sufficient for their salvation for, having thus believed, they still asked, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” And we know what they were told to do. And it was no different from what the Lord required of Saul. And no different from what is required today of those who believe on Jesus as the Son of God and who are willing to confess that belief before man and to repent of their sins and to be baptized in His name for remission of sins.

          27. mallen11 says

            Good post and you are right as long as you know that “repent” means to change one’s mind about Christ and then believe in the work He did for us on the cross by taking our sins on Him the last three hours on the cross while He was separated from God the Father who judged the sins of the entire human race. That was His spiritual death. Many people believe that “repent” means to ask God to forgive them of their sins before salvation but no one can pray to God before salvation except to tell Him they are believing in His Son, Jesus Christ. Baptism is only an illustration of what we did at the moment of Salvation; it does not save us since Jesus Christ did all the work. He said, “It is finished” and then He died physically. That is interesting that you caught what Billy Graham taught because he did not back in the 1950’s when I first heard him in Houston, TX. I was 13 and after attending one night of his crusade I went home and prayed to God that I believed in Jesus Christ by faith alone.

          28. Yadja says

            Amen and yes we are sisters in Spirit. We are encouraged in the Biblical texts to congregate with those who share our beliefs, when two or more are gathered in my name there am I also, but the church learned early the power it could have over congregations but the truth of the word is given to us all and we don’t need an interpreter.

          29. Betty Schwartz says

            Read Matthew 6…. (:

          30. Yadja says

            Thanks 🙂

          31. Betty Schwartz says

            You and yadja……. I’m the same…
            Read Matthew 6
            Its in writing about how we feel

          32. Btty says

            Thank you Betty. I will read it.

          33. Christopher J. Doran says

            Ladies, as a long time Christian, I hear ya, but if I may: did you ever consider that maybe one of those churches needs you?

          34. Btty says

            Christopher, I to am a long time Christian. There was a time that I attended church on a regular basis. Know what I found? The preacher’s kids were the worst behaved of all. Women don’t stick together and most of them don’t want to let newcomers in, they have allowed themselves to be a part of a high school mentality clique. When or if a church needs you they should humble themselves my friend. If a church wants me to do something for them and they all did and I cooked for them, made costumes for Easter events etc. Don’t treat me like sh-t then ask me to do something for the church. Don’t take my tithing then go on lavish trips to Russia, Israel etc. You want my tithing? Then you do good deeds with it in my own country or you don’t get crap from me. I will take my own tithing and help someone in my country who needs it. Thank you very much. Don’t point fingers at us because there are 3 pointing back at you!

          35. al.k says

            I agree, the Lord showed me that we are the Church, the religious organizations will tell you that you owe the Lord the top ten, then have all the fundraiser benefits for more money, they all put on humanitarian aid in other countries and do nothing here.
            These bible school hirelings stress on giving, the scripture says to give as you per pose in your heart, It didn’t say to neglect your family so the pastor can live lavishly.
            Owe no man but to love him, don’t tell us to give gifts on credit cards and become debtors, The Lord would rather we gave $4 in humility than $400 with an attitude.

        3. jimwilson81 says

          I hear what you are saying, but I only partly agree with you. The Church was created for a reason, for believers to get together and pray as a family, to show that you love them as a family. After all, when a scribe ask Jesus what was the greatest of all the commandments, how did Jesus respond? You shall love the Lord your God with all your soul and all of your might; and to love your neighbor as your self.
          I hear it all the time that people do not get anything from either the Mass or a church service. My answer is similar to what John Kennedy said; ask not what the Church can do for you, ask what you can do for the Church. To get anything out of it, you have to put yourself into it.

          1. Yadja says

            Where was the church Jesus set up?????? I agree that to be with believers is a good thing but I do not believe it necessary to go to any church. Not when they gossip and only look for money to build a bigger church. What did Paul say about what a church should be? He said let those who have healing hands come, those who can speak in tongues come, those who have the gift of prophesy come. Prophesy the greatest gift of all because if someone speaks in tongues and can not interpret the message what good is it? But those who prophesy and can tell someone their inner most secrets then that person knows nothing is hidden and believes.

            Yes a gathering of those who have healing hands, those who speak in tongues and translate the message and those who prophesy is wonderful but most churches say that is evil, that is bad, that is unacceptable. The age of miracles is past……..I say my Daddy in Heaven…..which the Lord’s prayer translates to in Arabic and is much more personal, is with me always and has given me everything I ever asked for and continue to this day to be the greatest part of my life and miracles are on a greater scale than anyone can imagine. Right now…..today…..everyday….all over the world.

            I rest my case.

          2. jimwilson81 says

            You got it wrong. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 13 that in the end only three things last: Faith, Hope, and Love. The greatest of these is Love. The same thing Jesus said. And by the way, in Greek, love is a verb, an action. You show love by how you treat people. I rest my case.

          3. Yadja says

            What does that have to do with what I said??????

            Corinthians 12:4 “Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are varieties of ministries, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of working, but the same God, who works all things in all. …….To one through the Spirit is given to ………….To another the gift of healing, in the one Spirit’ to another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another the distinguishing of spirits; to another various kinds of tongues; to another interpretation of tongues. But all these things are the work of one and the same Spirit,……….”

            Corinthians 14 “Aim at charity, yet strive after the spiritual giftes, but especially that you may prophesy. For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, as he is speaking mysteries in his spirti. But he who prophesies speaks to men for edification, and encouragement, and consolation. He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. Now I should like you all to speak in tongues, but still more to prophesy; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks in tongues, unless he can interpret so that the church may receive edification.”

            I rest my case.

          4. jimwilson81 says

            1 Corinthians 13 was the conclusion on his speech of the great gifts and he concluded that love was the greatest of the gifts. Those gifts that you quoted are fine in themselves but he concludes chapter 12 he will show us a more excellent way and the starts chapter 13 which concludes that the greatest gift of all is love.

          5. Yadja says

            I am saying what I got out of St Paul and that is when we gather together we are to use these gifts that is why we are given them not to hide them, be ashamed of them or condemn them. Yet that is what happens nowadays and has for sometime when a church uses these gifts, they are condemned. St Paul started all this conversation off with saying he would not have us be ignorant of these gifts. And we remain ignorant of these gifts.

            Love is not a gift it is what we should be filled with and this love is why we use these gifts.

          6. jimwilson81 says

            Basically you are right. But in Greek there are 5 different words for love. That is the problem with English. In John’s Gospel, we are told that the greatest love of all is to give ones life for another. When we talk about love in the New Testament, one needs to specify which one we are talking about.

          7. Yadja says

            Indeed the Greeks had many names for Love and the kinds of love. My interpretation is that if your heart is filled with Love, which it can not help but be so if you are intent on good, then you give the gifts you have to others.

            I know from serving in this war and Shield/Storm soldiers do give their lives to save others. Those who experienced that love are forever changed. I met them in DWMMC and in the RR.

            Love is powerful and makes for a different breed of cat.

          8. jimwilson81 says

            I completely agree with you there.

          9. Yadja says

            When you are filled with Love there is no room for Hate.

            When you are filled with Light, A light has come into the world and man preferred the darkness, you can’t have darkness.

          10. jimwilson81 says

            True.

          11. Ron says

            Christianity is a Faith that emphasizes love of one’s fellow human beings.
            Another “religion,” not faith, we are learning a lot about today emphasizes hate. May God have mercy on their souls but I’ve a suspicion He will not because He gave them equal opportunity to convert to His Way and they are refusing by following a false prophet. [ I’m aware this is not politically correct but that’s tough. Pontius Pilate was politically correct to appease a mob when he allowed Jesus to be crucified after he formally stated,
            “I find no fault in the man…..” ]

          12. Ron says

            Agape Love is God’s Love. There are no strings attached.
            Philia Love is love between family members and friends. Caring.
            Eros Love is between two people “in love” with each other such as between husband/wife, boyfriend/girlfriend and whatever other category one wants to add that fits this limited focused love. It includes sexual attraction as well as extreme caring.

          13. jimwilson81 says

            You are correct.

          14. suzyshopper says

            What would be the point of a person laying hands on someone, I’m quite sure that some Christians have probably taken that verse literally did it, and the person still
            died what do u say too them then?What would the point of doing that be?

          15. Yadja says

            I am not a preacher. I only know what I believe to be true and have been eye witness to. The following verses speak of Healing and Laying on of hands.
            James 5:14-15
            Acts 28:8
            Acts 19:11-12
            Mark 16:18
            Timothy 5:22
            I John 5:14-15
            1 Corinthians 12

            As for laying on of hands for the sick, it does say they will recover but does not say that all will be healed nor will all recover from their sickness or disease.

            There is also the matter of Faith and the final decision is up to a Higher Power than ourselves. Having worked with Death/Dying as a nurse of close to 30 years I know that when it is time for someone to Cross Over they will no matter what. If it is not their time they won’t no matter what kind of situation they are in.

            I do believe in the gifts and there was no time limit put on them for mankind. Individuals who seek healing may come to understand the healing may not be physical as much as Spiritual. Sometimes Spiritual healing is necessary for physical healing.

            I do not have answers for others I can only relay what I understand to be true then it is up to the individual to study and find their own understanding.

          16. marshmil says

            Yadja you are correct.

          17. Yadja says

            He won’t listen, this is what St Paul was talking about we should use our gifts when we come together and we don’t do it and any church that does is called Holy Rollers or nuts or worse.

          18. headonstraight says

            “Whither there be tongues, they shall cease.” That is Bible stuff.

          19. suzyshopper says

            Did u ever stop too think that some gifts might have been meant for a certain period in time, and not now?

          20. Yadja says

            I have heard many say this but I can not agree, I don’t think there is a timeline on healing gifts. They are for mankind to use and to understand.

            I can not deny what I personally have experienced in my own life and others. I have seen miracles through the use of the gifts. Especially Laying on of Hands. I am a Believer and I can only hope that everyone somewhere in their lifetime will come to understand what is written is true.

          21. Btty says

            That’s right jim. But you don’t need church for that. We can have Faith, Hope and Love without going to church. Yes, it’s nice to be in a place where others have your same belief but Church will not get you into Heaven.

          22. jimwilson81 says

            All the Church is, is a place for saved sinners, for all have sinned and have come short of the glory of God. It is a place for sinners to forgive one another and to give glory to God the Father through the Son in the Holy Spirit.

          23. marshmil says

            Btty “church” membership will not get anyone into Heaven. But Church Membership is required. Note the difference. The first one means denominational membership. The latter means Membership in the Universal Body of Christ which
            only True Believers qualify for. God Himself puts His Permanent Seal of Approval on all who are Begotten by Him. At the Resurrection of the Just all of us Begotten of God will finally be BORN AGAIN (second time) never to die. Those who rejected Jesus as the Son of God will be “raised” at the resurrection of the damned and there will be no chance to convert. It’s too late! Which brings up the subject of atheism. Considering the possible consequences of rejecting God what is the problem with inquiring into God’s Plan and sincerely “joining up?” For me it is just plain simple logic apart from religiosity. Oh well. To each his own.

          24. suzyshopper says

            Well put marshalmil The only thing Im in disagreement with u about is when u say, that ppl are going too be born again at the resurrection, my understanding is your born again the moment you believe, not some future time.

          25. Ron says

            That is a popular misconception. We are Baptised with the Holy Spirit at the instant of True Belief that Jesus is the Son of God. We are “born of the Spirit at either the Resurrection of the Just (Believers) or previously at what some refer to at the “Rapture” when Jesus returns secretly and snatches away His Church into Heaven where we will be with Him in the air. Our first birth is with “water.” That is the natural birth when mama delivers her baby. The baby has a physical body but not a spiritual body. On “Conversion” that person is instantly Baptised with the Holy Spirit and Sealed by God’s Promis.
            At that thing called the “Rapture” those lying in cemetery graves will be secretly raised, receive a Spiritual Body and then we True Believers who are still “alive” at the time will be instantly changed and given a Spiritual Body and ascend with Jesus up into the air. Paul says, “changed in the twinkling of an eye.” INSTANTANEOUSLY! It could actually happen while your are reading this post. Only God knows the exact day, hour, minute and billisecond. Be ready! It’s gonna be a wonderful change. And when God says,”Change is a coming”
            He means something GOOD, factual and definite and not some babble for political expediency.

          26. marshmil says

            Love is both a noun and a verb. God showed His LOVE (noun) through Jesus. “LOVE” (verb) one another as I have loved (verb) you. And I rest MY case.

          27. Ron says

            jim I think you missed the point of Yadja’s comment. Both of you are right. I would add only that the age of miracles never passed. One very real example is the Sun, the Moon and the Stars being used by God for Signs and for Seasons. Solar and Lunar eclipses are falling right on time as predicted. THAT is a visible miracle. Look up! He is telling us some things on His Heavenly Billboard.

          28. jimwilson81 says

            Btw, Jesus started his Church in Galilee knowing that it would go through out the world.

          29. marshmil says

            And eleven of Jesus’ disciples were from Galilee. Guess which one was from Jerusalem (in Judea). …….Judas.

          30. Yadja says

            That is not what I asked. What building did he have built to house his preaching????

            None. Not saying when the places of worship started to be built it was against His teaching but the True Church and Temple of God is our body. He is a part of us.

          31. jimwilson81 says

            Originally he preached in the synagogues, but his Church are those who believe in Him. In that, you are right. Sorry for misunderstanding you question.

          32. Yadja says

            Not a problem….we are on the same page. You know much and I enjoy your posts.

          33. Lee Birkhead says

            Actually, there was not a church building because the word church did not appear until the English translation of the bible which I believe was called the Bishop’s Bible. That was before the King James Version. The original word was ecclesia, meaning a group of sorts. Whether it be political, social or religious group meeting, etc. In the 1st century religious Christian groups met secretly in homes because the Romans were still against (killing) the Christians until the Emperor Constantine about 314 AD. I think his mother-in-law led him to Christ.

          34. Yadja says

            The church at Philippi was St. Paul’s first foundation on European soil.

            St. Paul founded the church at Thessalonica during the early part of his second great missionary journey, about 51 AD.

            http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/255972
            A cave in Rihab, Jordon that archeologists discovered could be the oldest church in the world. The cave is an underground chapel dating back to AD33-70.

            “Wherever two or more of you are gathered in my name there am I also”.

          35. Lee Birkhead says

            You’re correct on all counts. My point was that some will argue that there was no “church” at that time, trying to discredit the Bible. Their argument is that wasn’t a word church at that time. Pretty slim argument since there was no English language at that time either. Duh!

          36. Yadja says

            I have come to understand that those who oppose religion or the Biblical texts and deny all the archeological evidence that is revealed daily to substantiate the Biblical texts, are so filled with venom I can feel the spewing of spittle across the keys.

            They foam at the mouth, they are truly people I want nothing to do with. They are to be avoided. Even the Bible gives reasons to divorce and one is if you are married to an unbeliever. They are vicious.

          37. Lee Birkhead says

            I usually resist from saying much to non-believers until I compare their sources of information with mine. It is the most well known book in history…the most written about, translated, published, paraphrased, discussed, evaluated, distributed, researched, referenced, quoted, printed and read book in history.
            66 BOOKS, LETTERS & ESSAYS, WRITTEN OVER 15 CENTURIES, 40 VARIOUS AUTHORS, UNCORROBORATED, 3 LANGUAGES, 3 CONTINENTS, COVERS HISTORY, PHILOSOPHY, POETRY, WISDOM, WAR, PEACE, LOVE, SEX, MEDICINE, PROVERBS, SONGS, PSYCHOLOGY AND ETERNAL LIFE

            Also: Luke 5; “And as for those who do not receive you, as you go out from that city, shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them.”

          38. Yadja says

            Agreed. Good post.

          39. suzyshopper says

            Pardon me but could u quote the verses to me where it says, a believer can divorce and unbeliever, because the verses I read, say that if a unbeliever wants to remain with a believer that’s acceptable.The only verse that I’ve ever read is its only acceptable too divorce for adultery, not because one spouse is and unbeliever. I know the Bible pretty well, because I researched the divorce issue, when I got divorced many yrs ago.I can quote the verses if need be.

          40. Ron says

            Susy your post was directed to Yadja but if you’ll allow me Paul gave what I consider a humoros answer to the whole problem of divorce. He suggested remaining single just as he was single. See I Corinthians 7:7. Paul’s detailed writing in I Corinthians chapter 7 is loaded with marriage recommendations. Check it out. Hope this is of help even if I did “butt in” to the chat.

          41. Yadja says

            1 Corinthians 7:14-15 “But if the unbelieving partner separates, let it be so. In such cases the brother or sister is not enslaved. God has called you to peace.”

            Matthew 19:9 “And I say to you whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.”

            2 Corinthians 6:14 ” Do not be bound together with unbelievers……….”

            You are right and the scripture is confusing because it appears that the unbeliever or the believer can separate.

          42. Ron says

            Yadja I can easily follow your thoughts here. To me, those who do this have agenda going on that they see as being frowned upon by religion, the Bible, or even socially acceptable standards. So the best way to remove the lack of harmony is to remove that which to them brings disharmony. There is an old saying “Kill the bearer of bad news” —in order to destroy whatever the bad news is about. They program their minds to accept whatever they like or want to do as being correct and anything “getting in their way” be it laws, religion, social standards or whatever has to be destroyed. Hitler tried to destroy Christianity because its teachings got in the way of his agenda. Christianity and Judiasm get in the way of Islam so Muslims want to destroy the Faith of King David.

          43. jimwilson81 says

            Good to know that and I don’t doubt it.

          44. Ron says

            Ecclesia is a Greek word and it means “called out.” That is exactly what the True Church (the Body of Christ) is. It is a collection (group) “called out” of the world as Jesus’ Followers.
            Membership is based on Faith that Jesus (Yeshua) IS the Son of God which means God in a fleshly body.
            Lee you might have unintentionally stated it wrong when you said, “the Romans were still against (killing) the Christians.” You might have NOT meant “against” because they were FOR killing Christians until Constantine who was converted to Christianity because of influence by his Mother-in-Law. Constantine then declared Christianity to be the “official” religion. He also changed the day to cease all work from the Sabbath (seventh week day which today we call Saturday) to Sunday. The Roman Church continued that change and so did Protestants. And THAT is why we have “church” on Sunday instead of on Saturday, the Sabbath.

          45. Lee Birkhead says

            Sorry for the delay but you are correct. You read me wrong that’s why I put “against” in (). By that I meant killing IS against!
            Ecclesia was used as a substitute for a “group” meeting, at least according to what I have read.
            When I said “led him to Christ” I think I could have said “influenced”.
            Don’t be so picky.

          46. marshmil says

            Yadja. Bless you. You are not far from the Kingdom of Heaven. I’m told that
            “Abba” (Father) means “Daddy” when correctly translated to English. That is really CLOSE.

          47. Yadja says

            Thank you I will take that. I studied the Biblical texts that were corrected to match the language of the day and like today our slang and our meanings are not the same as they were 50 years ago. I try to understand and research and I find the oldest texts, besides the Egyptian Gnostic Verses, the Dead Sea Scrolls are the oldest and they match 5 books in the Bible.

            When you read the Lord’s Prayer in it’s proper context it becomes very loving and not distant but overwhelmingly intimate. Like a child speaking to their father who they call daddy which is so much more cozy.

            I want the truth and I have come as close as I am going to get, although I do get surprises now and again like the Book of Judas. Just as the Book says don’t bother trying to figure it out because you won’t but live one day at a time and all will be clear when the hour comes.

          48. marshmil says

            Yadja recall what Yeshua (Jesus) said about “tomorrow.” He said in so many words to not give thought about what we will have for food or wear for clothing tomorrow. He said consider the lilies of the fields how Solomon in all his regal splendor was not dressed like one of these flowers. And consider the birds of the air how they neither sow seeds, till the soil then gather crops into barns yet God in Heaven feeds them. He said you are worth more than many sparrows and God knows the things you have need of way before you ask him for them. Oops! ‘Scuse me for coming across like a preacher…which I’m not.

          49. Yadja says

            Indeed I do and also that He sees every sparrow when it falls and Yaweh had some pretty rough words concerning animal sacrifice to Him in the Old Testament.

            Now psychologists and those involved in treating all the stressed out people today who can’t seem to know why they are here, where they are going and what they should do……take one day at a time.

          50. marshmil says

            Exactly. The day’s cares are enough for each day. We live in a hectic, crazy world. I have a hard enough time even keeping up with today.

          51. headonstraight says

            Those who claim to have “healing hands” and to heal folks of cancer, diabetes, etc, are charlatans preying on the ignorant and gullible. As to speaking in tongues, that has been thoroughly discredited by language experts who have proven that those who practice that gibberish passing for “tongues” are just mimicking what they hear from false prophets who deceive them into thinking they are speaking in tongues. People are so easily duped.

          52. Yadja says

            Charlatans have always been among us. We have doctors who are Charlatans, take offs on designer clothes and purses, those who abuse herbs or their properties but that does not mean the real McCoy does not exist. Let the Buyer Beware.

            As a nurse of close to 30 years, 4.5 of them spent with Cancer patients, I have seen Miracles and they do exist and there are people with Healing Hands and those who speak in tongues and your dead wrong for as many deniers I can find those who have studied and say otherwise. As for prophets they are among us and we have seen their work throughout the world and Russia did a 50 year study on them along with the above mentioned.

            Your call…..I know better…..seeing is believing.

          53. headonstraight says

            Cancer patients sometimes undergo spontaneous, unexplained total remission. That is not a miracle, though some might be inclined to say it is. The Oral Roberts, Benny Hinn, Ernest Angely, etc. “faith healers” have been conclusively shown to be frauds. Language experts have evaluated modern “tongue-speaking and have shown that it is incoherent babble, and that those practicing it have been bamboozled by charismatic, persuasive charlatans to believe they are actually speaking in tongues as people did in the First Century church. The human mind does strange things.

            “We have all heard the term “speaking in tongues”; but, no one actually spoke in tongues in the Bible. Rather, they spoke in their own language, and the listeners HEARD the message in their own native language. We read in Acts 2:8-11, “And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.” So none of the Apostles, nor any of the New Testament saints, ever spoke in some unknown Heavenly jibber-jabber; but rather, in their own native language.”

            http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Doctrines/Speaking%20in%20Tongues/demonic.htm

          54. Yadja says

            I worked at Baptist Cancer Institute in Jacksonville, Florida and the cases I speak of were documented and substantiated because we had the X-Rays showing the tumors and after the Healing ceremony, of which I went to with several patients, the tumor was gone and the Doctors had not a clue. The patients grabbed their X-rays and kept them to prove their healing.

            You were not there and you will not force me to say that what I saw, what I know to be true is spontaneous remissions. Believe as you please I am not with you on this.

            I suggest you read Corinthians 14 Tongues Require Interpretation, 6-25 “……Wherefore tongues are intended as a sign, not to believers, but to unbelievers……” verse 22 but take the time to read it all.

          55. suzyshopper says

            May I ask a question, why would u think that God couldnt heal someone without the laying on of hands, what I’m trying to say is what would be the purpose of using a person, a conduit of sorts too heal someone, could not God heal them without human intervention?

          56. Yadja says

            The way I understand the scriptures I shared with you to read on healing is it is always via the Almighty and it can happen simultaneously without a believer who has the gift or uses the promises of the Almighty for healing.

            When Jesus shriveled the fig tree and his followers were amazed he said that if they just had the faith of a mustard seed they could tell the mountains to run to the seas and they would obey. I suppose it is a matter of faith.

            I have it and it has worked for me.

          57. Btty says

            jim, I respectfully disagree. There are some good churches no doubt about it. But beware of wolves in sheeps clothing. I don’t think Yadja or I are saying chuch is a bad thing. We (at least I) don’t need it to worship God. Frankly, if you want to find a hypocrite, go to church. Because they will be there. I don’t think loving God and whorshiping God makes me any better than anyone else. Yet, time after time I have felt in church that there are those who thinks if makes them better than other. Know what? I believe we are all where God wants us to be right at this moment. There will be those who are further along in scripture and closer to God than others but he loves us all. I also believe God has a way of bringing those together that he wants together and its not always in church. When a church tells me I have to get up at 6:00am or 7:00am to come and worship God know what I say? Not me! I’m at an age that if I want to sleep til 10:00 am I will. Now if they want to change their Sundays to a later time I might attend more often. I don’t feed me this crap of: Oh if you loved God you would get up early and go. Bull pucky! Believe me I have heard that kind of guilt from many churches. I’ve also been in churches that have turned more progressive to keep their so called flock. God doesn’t change but churches do. I say this with all due respect Jim.

          58. jimwilson81 says

            You are right about that that is I like St Paul so much.

          59. headonstraight says

            If the old saw about hypocrites in the church keeps someone from accepting God’s plan of salvation for his soul, he can look forward to associating with millions of hypocrites in a warm place in the afterlife.

          60. marshmil says

            Great response jimwilson81. I think of the “Church” as being a universal collection of ALL who accept that Yeshua (Jesus) IS Messiah. He addressed the issue when speaking with a Samaritan woman at Jacob’s well. She brought up the subject of WHERE people will worship (Jerusalem). Jesus gave the answer when he said that people will worship God “neither on this mountain (in Samaria) nor in Jerusalem but in Spirit and in Truth.” Church (denominational) membership is fine but only Membership in the One Universal Church, the Body of Christ counts. I hold membership in one of the denominations but I am with my Creator wherever I happen to be at any time. He is there with me because He fills all of Creation.
            Isn’t that wonderful!.

          61. jimwilson81 says

            Yes it is. A church doesn’t have to be a building. The early Christians of Rome worship In the catacombs.

          62. Ron says

            jimwilson81 we have to be careful to not let churchianity replace God. There is too much emphasis on “membership.” Now church membership is a wonderful way to publicly show one’s
            stand on Christianity provided it is not done for “politically correct” or churchianity correct reasons. One does not have to hold church membership in order to be among the Redeemed.
            Some “join” churches for the same reason they join clubs such as the Elks Club, the Lions Club, the Exchange Club, the Masons, etc. They simply want to join something. Those clubs and memberships are fine. Jesus discussion with the Samaritan woman at Jacob’s well revealed some very important information. He told the woman the time is coming when people will worship in “spirit and truth” ….and not in a certain physical location. Read it for details. The thief next to Jesus actually worshiped Jesus as the Son of God in spite of the circumstances at that moment. Now that, to me, was an extreme setting for a worship service. Today we can worship in a nice building sheltered from bad weather, with friends, sitting on a nice seat and wearing nice clothes. God used that dying thief to illustrate something very important. We need to bless Jesus.

      3. Nastasyana says

        Yes, the bible does say that in the old testament. Read the Koran and see if it’s as bad as everyone thinks.

      4. Rob Joyner says

        “Your” stumbling in your grammar and it makes your wordiness even less interesting.

        1. headonstraight says

          The all-too-common confusion over the second person possessive and the contraction for “you are” is all too common and is just one of many indicators of the widespread abuse of our Mother Tongue.

    3. Btty says

      I could not agree with you more. Well said. You go girl! Love it.

      1. Yadja says

        Thank you. 🙂

    4. Nastasyana says

      I don’t understand how someone’s actions infringe on your religious rights. No one is forcing you to marry gay or even to have gay friends. Jesus hung out with prostitutes and tax collectors and did not force them to change or believe as he did. He accepted everyone and his message was love not judgement. No one is trying to “take my faith from me . That is religious freedom. You can believe whatever you want and others can have their beliefs also. When you stand before God, it will not be with your neighbors or your church or even your family. It will be you you alone and he will not ask if you were gay. He will ask, “Did you love your neighbor as yourself?

      1. Yadja says

        When people insist that we who do not hold their beliefs bake wedding cakes for them, allow them to marry on our property, teach in our schools they are OK with their life choices, insist we make them T-shirts, insist that we accept them then they are at fault. So don’t give me all the pretty words while those who are Gay are insisting we who do not accept them but do indeed believe they have rights, accept their way of life.

        I have no obligation to be pulled into their lifestyle and I should be free to choose my way and if it does not include them then that is my right. When I stand before the Almighty I will say I know your words and I understand that homosexuality is a sin against creation and I do not indulge in it but I do not condemn or keep those who practice it from their rights under our law and Constitution then I am fine it is the Gays who have to deal with the problem that they did what they did for whatever reason they did it.

        Not my problem. PSS you can not change scripture…..Yaweh created man and woman not man and man or woman and woman. They can not procreate, what about that plan do you not understand?

        1. suzyshopper says

          Is true they want us too be tolerant of their lifestyle, but they are not tolerant of ours.

      2. savetheusa2 says

        Jesus did not hang out with prostitutes and tax collectors as a friend. He did so as a DOCTOR. He did not leave them the same way He found them. He told them the TRUTH and they had to decide what they wanted to do. Remember the famous adulteress? He told her when all her accusers left, to go and SIN NO MORE! He was on a mission to show us the WAY. You must follow the Ten Commandments because He said, if you love me you will follow My commandments. He told us we must pick up our crosses everyday. He suffered and He said we will suffer, too. But we will have everlasting life with Him.
        When you are forced to deny your religious faith, your religious freedom has been infringed upon. Also, many will say Lord, Lord … and He will say that He does not know you.
        When He sees you at the ‘pearly gates’, He will show you your entire life and you will be the judge of where you will be sent. You will find out that God exists and His commandments were NEVER suggestions. Jesus said marriage is between a man and a woman. Logic concludes marriage is never between two of the same sex. He said many things, they just aren’t all in the Bible.

      3. suzyshopper says

        That’s not true Jesus did not accept their sinful ways,they were asked too repent , that means turn away from there sinful practices,not continue in them, also in the end the Bible says that all judgement is given into the sons hands, so Jesus will judge them. Your idea of Jesus is some wish washy person who just loves everybody, and overlooks sin. Jesus also had a confrontation with a prostitute,who was about to be stoned, when Jesus rebuked the crowd, they left he turned too the prostitute and said neither do I condemn thee, go and SIN NO MORE.

      4. suzyshopper says

        You state that a person can believe whatever they want too believe, and others can believe what their beliefs are, Jesus said and I quote(I am the WAY the truth and the LIfe NO MAN cometh too the FATHER BUT BY ME. That’s pretty exclusive, in essence he’s saying their is only one way to heaven, and ain’t thru other beliefs . He also said that the road too life would be narrow, and few their be that find it .How u can say that Jesus did not judge shows a lack of scripture, Jesus said and I quote( Think not that I am come to send peace on earth,I came not too send peace, but a sword.For I am come too set a man at variance,against his father,and the daughter against her mother,and the daughter in law against her mother in law.And a mans foes shall be they of his own household.

        1. Nastasyana says

          I love the way christians choose to interpret what jesus said and what he meant by it. They choose sections of the bible that confirm what they already think. I choose to slect the sections where jesus talks about loving your fellow man.

    5. Doris C says

      Exactly. I always felt the same way. Let people do what they want in the privacy of their homes. but now its not in their homes. Its in mine, on TV in books all over the computer and in the courts forcing people to honor their way.Well to you LGBT people, stay out of my face. I dont try and make you accept my lifestyle dont even imagine you can make me accept yours.Forcing Christians to condone your acts only makes them more fired up against you.

      1. Yadja says

        Amen, right on and you betcha.

      2. suzyshopper says

        Got that right!

    6. stephanie wilson says

      exactly!!!!

    7. Rob Joyner says

      You don’t have to accept what other people do. You just can’t deny them the right. My neighbors do a lot of things that are their business, not mine. They didn’t ask me if I was okay with it because it is not my place to give them permission to do those things. If a couple wants to go about in the public as one they have every civil right to do it. Civil rights and religious rights are entirely different. It’s the religious (or christian, or whatever title you wish) who insist that these people don’t have the right, however what they fail to recognize is that no one asked them to accept this act in a religious realm, just the civil one. And, we all have the civil right.

      1. Yadja says

        Nobody including me ever said they could not practice their rights under the Constitution just don’t expect people to accept it as the norm and then get ticked when those who don’t agree with you decide they are not going to play your game.

        The church does not have to marry you, it goes against their doctrine, start your own churches, get your own preachers and do your thing.

      2. suzyshopper says

        According too the Constitution, it says anything not enumerated in it, is too be left up too the states,not some activist judges, and nowhere in the Constitution does it say anything about gay marriage, which according to our law of the land the Constitution , means that it’s a states issue.

    8. pmbalele says

      I just wanted to tell you if you’re married to a Repub or TP watch-out. They hate wrinkled women. Just imagine what Newt did to his wife -going to seek divorce when in surgery or Gov. Sanford -going all the way to Argentine for a married woman – just because his wife was old. I am telling American women -don’t trust GOP or Repub men. Once they see you with wrinkles they will run away from you.

      1. Yadja says

        Republican women have enough money to get surgery and to keep their looks. It is the fat, sloppy, nasty, fungus toenailed and scuzzy Democrats I see in Walmart that never were goodlooking whose men suffer. Their problem.

        1. pmbalele says

          You’re funny. Thank God I have a woman of my color. I see the women of your kind start breaking down at the age of 40 -just terrible -wrinkled everywhere and loose skin. That is why your men run away from you. They cannot stand loose skin. I am lucky.

          1. Yadja says

            Yeh that is why so many Black Rappers and stars get with blondes with blue eyes.

            Your a pickle you are.

          2. pmbalele says

            That is why they divorce and marry their kind. So watch out. You may be dumped is you get wrinkled.

          3. Yadja says

            If I am only the sum of my face and figure then I have failed in life. I am not worried about getting older because with age comes wisdom…..usually…..Libs are the exception to that rule. They are too soon old and too late smart.

          4. pmbalele says

            That was out of the topic anyway. I will not go too far denigrating you. God made you as you’re and you should be proud of who you are. I hope I make sense.

      2. suzyshopper says

        And u think democrats are blameless that they haven’t done those same things and worse?

        1. pmbalele says

          At least they have never shut-down the government like your fat Ted Cruz who is non-citizen from Canada. I just fail to understand how stupid TPs are to elect Ted Cruz who is not eligible to work here.

    9. Maynard Merrell says

      Yadja: Good work.

      1. Yadja says

        Thank you 🙂

    10. al.k says

      Think YOU WERE REFERRING TO CHAPTER 1 OF ROMS: Very good, too bad these perverts think we should condone their perverted way of life, anyone who believes has to be restrained from offending all unrighteousness and give way to their religion, having a personal relationship with the Lord is very comforting, sure glad I don’t have to pray to nothing 5 times a day, when praying in Jesus Name I have seen many Miracles, have never heard of a single one in the name of allah, blind faith, they do have more faith than most professing christians, too bad its a complete waste of time, I wish to challenge all muslims to prove even one healing miracle in allahs name!

      1. Yadja says

        Thank you your right on they demand recognition but they give none. They demand respect but they give none. They demand their Rights yet want the rights of others to not be taken into consideration.

        I also have witnessed miracles and I have seen the patients who received them pull their X-rays off the wall and keep them to prove it was no mistake that their tumors disappeared. The doctors had no explanation, many doctors know about miracles and many have healing hands and know the patients problems just by touching them, but they won’t admit to it or use their gifts for fear of being ostracized and they would be.

        There is no Allah, Islam is a farce and Muhammad was a murderer, pedophile who married his last wife when she was 6 and took her to bed when she was 9 and he was a thief. There is nothing Holy about Muhammad. It is sad.

    11. RuFus92 says

      Your statement is what the Supreme court forgot to take under advisement when they handed their decision down. They tried to dictate moral thought onto people and that has and will never work.

  8. PIERRE77L says

    No matter law is passed. The U.S. Constitution supecedes all laws combined. Any that violates the constitution is considered null and void. That is it ! Cut and Dried !

    1. loran says

      That is correct. However, one has to wonder who interprets it and whom are the followers. Right now the left has the most followed interpretation of some of the most important amendments, which I believe are interpretations by ideology, not as the written intent.

      1. mallen11 says

        Yes, and left follow blindly. It doens’t matter how much you explain to them, if their “leaders” tell them to vote a certain way they will do it. They don’t think for themselves. I view them as a herd of donkeys hee-hawing and running off a clift.

      2. PIERRE77L says

        Thanks for the reply. No matter what their interpretations whether from Atheism, Liberalism, Islam. I believed what Thomas Jefferson said,” I will defend the U.S. Constitution with my life and liberty from every evil that comes forth out of the minds of men. ” Remember where there are group of people from all states to defend the rights of the old farmer in Nevada. Because the federal agents would like to harass, intimidate with the blessing of the left socialist bloodsucking Sen. Harry Reid. No Feds have no right to tell people how to do with their land, if you knew the history.

        1. loran says

          Personal property. That’s what is the constant in our Constitution. One of the things we threw off the British government about. When Obama was sworn in, he took the same oath that I did as a Sailor in the Pacific fleet to protect the Constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic. How’s that hope and change appearing now?

          1. PIERRE77L says

            Not good. it’s a matter of time if majority of Americans would wake up and take back our country from this Communist Subhuman Mongrels. 1776 will REIGN AGAIN !

      3. suzyshopper says

        And what exactly in the Constitution says that it’s ok to abort unborn children. And why are judges allowed too read things into a law that are not there. If the Constitution guarantees the RIGHT TOO LIFE, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, where are the aborteds rights??

  9. Red55bird says

    Liberalism has no place in the Constitution, but liberal judges appointed by Obama have taken the very Constitution that they swore to keep and twisted there sick agenda to what they feel the Constitution should look like, and under the Constitution the 1st Amendment was given to us not to keep Church from talking about Government , but to keep Government from dictating it’s will unto the Church, remember it was because of a King of England who wanted to dictate his will unto the people is why we have the 1st amendment of the Constitution.

  10. jim says

    Its never been about the individual and their difficulties/ their treatment –its really about changing the fabric of the American culture to meet their own twisted perspective of life– I feel sorry for them but they are making it harder every day to feel that way — I understand everyone is different and except many things I don’t like, as long as they don’t try to force it upon me — When the Government takes a stand that’s contrary to the natural order of life, we are in trouble — I think everyone life has value but to give sexual preference an equal seat at that table with race is unreasonable, since one is choice and one is not

    1. Terry Call says

      Please tell us what it was like for you when you went through the process of choosing your sexual “preference”? Tell us how that went for your family and friends.

      1. Arnold Young says

        Son you really have a problem. Tell your Mommy and Daddy to tuck you in and have that warm milk and take a nap. You will not be so crabby afterwards. 🙂

      2. jim says

        I could careless about your preference but don’t push it on me — Your choice of lifestyle is your decision no ones else — Who and how you spend your life is your decision — I don’t know how you think you can pawn it off on me — Its really not my problem and your not going make it so — I hope you happy in what ever you choose anyway — Good luck with that

  11. Linda Lee says

    The Constitution is there to restrain the government not to restrain the people. Leave the churches the hell alone.

    1. Jim says

      The two pastors do not operate a church but a wedding chapel. It is for profit.

      1. headonstraight says

        The Constitution never uses the word “church” or “chapel.” It does use the word “religion.” The practice of religion is not something that happens only “in church” or that is carried out solely “by a church.” Ever heard of the Hobby Lobby case. The Supreme Court did not have to regard that organization as a “church” in order to rule in their favor.

  12. Joe says

    We can’t let the GLBT mafia bully us any longer. There is nothing in the Constitution that gives them special protection or rights. God will not allow this to continue unpunished.

  13. Betty says

    Agree We were promised feedom now homosexuals have tried to punish everyone for their problems, now they are in control and everyone must bow down to them. This is a shame what about our rights to refuse service if we so desire. Beach restarents under this have to serve people without shoes and shirts.

    1. Terry Call says

      Brilliant post, especially the part about the beach restaurants since we don’t have health and sanitation laws in this country. You make your momma real proud I bet, graduated top of your class.

    2. suzyshopper says

      You know what really bugs me, is that in the healthcare law, we have to pay for aids drugs for their treatments, and now even sex changes. And why should religious ppl have to pay with taxpayer money for ppl to abort their children??

  14. FloridaJim says

    The BLT’s are all bullies. When Hitler came to power all his followers became bullies.The Houston Principal typifies them.

  15. JQcitizen says

    Homosexuality is not a race, nor has science identified a gene which causes the condition. It is a lifestyle choice which is more than likely caused by environmental influences including abuse, lack of a strong father figure, etc. Regardless of the cause, it is still no more than a lifestyle choice, one that should be discouraged by society, not condoned or celebrated or given any form of special treatment in law. From a biblical Christian perspective homosexuality is not just a sin but is an obamination in the eyes of God.

    1. Terry Call says

      No gene has been found for being left handed either. Does that in your eyes make being left handed a choice. The more of you who write things like this the more people turn away from Christians for fear of seeming stupid.

      1. suzyshopper says

        No the reason ppl turn away from what christians say, it because they hate the truth, they love darkness rather than light ,and it isn’t like we didn’t know it was coming, Jesus said they hated him,and because of what we proclaim to the rest of the world, we will be hated, we expect it, it comes as no surprise!

  16. pmbalele says

    Give to God which is God’s and give to Caesar which is Caesar’s. Therefore
    religious people should never intertwine their activities with government or
    political functions. For instance the nuns should have never sued to interfere
    with their workers’ rights to the pill. These nuns’ lawsuit was fake. If they
    were really church-abiding nuns-they should have never even thought that their
    employees engaged in sinful sex or temptation to do so. Please retract your
    posting for it was full of contradictions.

    1. Donna Hardin says

      I don’t care who in hell takes the pill or who doesn’t ,but I do care that the government steps in and says that with my hard earned paychecks, I HAVE TO PAY FOR IT!

      1. pmbalele says

        Temper, temper, temper. Are you an employer or government? If not, you won’t be bothered to pay. But watch out -don’t get pregnant if you’re poor for TPs and Repubs will call you names. As for your temper, TPs and Repubs want you to follow Sharia law. Women under Sharia law are prohibited from blowing their top. If you want to be angry woman, then please don’t vote for Repubs or TPs. They may be harmful to you as an American woman in they enact Sharia law next year.

        1. Donna Hardin says

          NO I do not work for the government! The less government in my life all the better! I would never expect others to pay for my birth control pillls! ! Every person is NOT poor and homeless nor all they all stupid! There are other forms of birth control and if you can’t afford any of them then abstain! So no guilt here! I could care less about Sharia law! I live in America where women are treated with respect!

          1. pmbalele says

            You must be married and a stay-home woman. Watch out. There is a bar in Debuque Iowa with a big sign at the door -‘DON’T TRUST A MAN.” Once you’re wrinkled as most your kind turn after 45, he will dump you for an office woman. Well, of course if you want to be a second wife -that will be perfect under Sharia law.

          2. Donna Hardin says

            I am a Respiratory Therapist thank you very much and yes am married. I don’t know what you want from me but please leave me alone! You needn’t worry about if I am old and wrinkled my husband is perfectly happy with me. You too will get older! Beware of what you say to belittle others. I have nothing more to say to you. I don’t know what you point is-your english makes no sense and you are very rude!

          3. pmbalele says

            You better take 2 Aspirins before you go to bed.

        2. suzyshopper says

          Boy if that isn’t a crock, I’m a tea party person and don’t believe any of what u stated,As for sharia law u better look too your democrat friends for that, their the ones putting extremist in this presidents administration.As for getting pregnant , thank you very much , I believe in taking responsibility for my own actions, not making someone else pay for my mistakes.

          1. pmbalele says

            Getting pregnant is no mistake. It’s you repubs and TPs causing pregnancies and then dump poor mothers. So stay off their women’s rights to control themselves. You’re no ISIS

  17. marlene says

    Sacrificing a constitutional freedom for an unconstitutional “right” is treason. For these lesbians and sodomites, cutting it both ways merely means bi. Sue to force them out of our face and, like Arnold Young below said, “watch them howl.” Sexual proclivities are NOT matters for law. Homosexuality as a “right” has no standing. Refuse to bend over and fight this unGodly, deviant, disease-ridden, travesty.

    1. suzyshopper says

      Couldn’t agree with u more it kills me how gays try too use the 14 th ammendment too justify gay marriage , like the founding fathers were oblivious too gay ppl in their communities, I’m quite sure the founders believe the 14th ammendment meant what they believed it too be, I dout very much that they wouldve have liked it too be used as a law, too justify gay marriage, or else there would never have been sodomy laws on the books.

  18. Urbane_Gorilla says

    Actually, the Declaration of Independence declares that “Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness” is an “unalienable right”., and the 14th Amendment provides for equal protection under the law.

    If authors like this would take off their religious blinders, they’d see that gays do not interfere with the practice of religion. But maybe you should practice in the dark under covers just as gays are expected to hide from you.

  19. Jay7027 says

    Brilliant! Exact! And 100% true! Excellent article.

  20. KayO says

    I think it’s only fair that if Christians are expected to be “reeducated” about homosexuality, then homosexuals should be ‘reeducated” about The Father, Son and Holy Ghost. That’s fair, right?

    1. loran says

      I think the Bible is pretty clear on homosexuality. Why would a Christian need more education?

      1. KayO says

        Judges are forcing Christian business owners to attend reeducation classes trying to get them to submit to the LGBT community. My point is that if the LGBT community wants to “force” their agenda on Christians, then it’s only fair to force the LBGT community to attend a bible believing church. Their hypocrisy needs to be exposed.

    2. suzyshopper says

      Not in their book it ain’t!

  21. loran says

    I believe that most people do not understand what is really going on. The leftist/statists do have an agenda here. There are 3 major things standing in their way of accomplishing that agenda. The agenda is to remake America into a socialist utopia where only they will have power and rule. To a Progressive, the true power lies with “ADMINISTRATION.” Not even the Office of The President has that power. They are well on their way to establishing completely their agenda. Look at the power the EPA and other agencies have. They can create law, enforce it and punish violators with due process. The 3 things standing in their way are the Constitution, the nuclear family unit and Christianity. Notice I did not write religion. They need to repeal the Constitution in order to take complete control. As it stands now, the Constitution prohibits that. That’s why you hear them talking about a living piece of paper. The nuclear family is what binds this nation together. We all want what is best for our children. LBJ dealt that a huge blow with his war on poverty laws which were anything but. It created this entitlement class which has become dependent on the federal government and allowed fathers to become free of responsibility and leave their families. Then there is Christianity which teaches one to be faithful to God and His word. Being faithful to Him and his Word brings about obedience, but also happiness and responsibility, denying obedience to the federal government. They will not tolerate that. Remember that statists/leftists NEED a victim class. Some one or a group which they then can be seen as helping, defending and protecting. So now we have the LGBT community which goes after all these hinderances to them at the same time. Thus the not so sneaky attack on Christianity. Today there are many Progressive ideas already established in our government which people don’t even recognize. Some even involve our elective process. We must be observant and educated as to what these Progressives are up to.

    1. Billy says

      Right on target.

      1. loran says

        I wish more people payed attention. This is a passion of mine, to study progressivism and educate people to it. Thanks for agreeing.

    2. suzyshopper says

      Couldn’t agree with u more!

  22. paulnordin@aol.com says

    The equal protection part of the U. S. Constitution (Section 1, Amendment XIV) comes to mind when considering pursuit of happiness for our citizens. Marriage is important for happiness, generally speaking. Gay people are citizens. How can straight people dictate gay behavior patterns, even if some of them (performed privately within their own bedroom) are disgusting to straight people? Think about it. And religious freedom is important but exercise of religious freedom should not infringe on the rights of other citizens. How about if business licenses required acceptable clientele being specified in business advertising?

    1. al.k says

      You say gays are citizens, what about the illegal queer and his first man michael in the WH, they seem to have more rights than the people, make their own laws as they go and the communists in congress say nothing.

      1. paulnordin@aol.com says

        What about the Republicans In Congress? And what about the Republicans when the current POTUS applied for eligibility to become POTUS? They failed! They said he was ok to become POTUS.

        1. al.k says

          That phony was installed, george soros money bought him in, and that’s been my thing, everyone but the potus had to prove every heart beat but this sodomite in chief was just installed, both parties and the mainstream media are owned by the money mongers, we don’t have legal elections, they are all fixed from the town level to the WH

    2. Donna Hardin says

      I try hard not to pass judgement especially when it isn’t asked for, and because I am not perfect! Although I don’t personally lean towards far left Liberal views I am not out to protest against them or keep them from their rights due them, as human beings. I try to be kind to everyone, and hope others will be kind to me as well.. My problem is not with Gay Marriage, but more with how the Liberals won’t practice what they preach! I agree that religion shouldn’t be shoved down anyone’s throats,and we shouldn’t pass judgement or constantly preach our beliefs as being the only right way,and people should mind their business when it comes to how others choose to live,especially if it isn’t harming anyone, BUT on by the same token, Christians shouldn’t have to “hide” all their Christmas Trees,and take down their GOD related signs,or be ridiculed if they aren’t big supporters of Gay Marriage etc.etc. Religion in schools should be “available” FOR ALL THOSE KIDS who WANT to participate in it,and those who don’t shouldn’t have to! (but how unfair to be completely taken away because of Liberal views)WE shouldn’t have to change how we live, or how we say the Pledge of Allegiance just to appease the other side so as not to OFFEND! If you don’t want to join in on prayer,or something you don’t like,-then don’t, but don’t take it away from everyone else because of your own view! Neither side should have to. But A liberal’s idea seems to be that EVERYTHING “not” on their agenda or not part of their view, is offensive,racist, or unacceptable, and to me,they are clearly doing the same thing that they accuse Conservatives of doing ,and that’s every bit as offensive! Can’t we ALL have our own ways of believing and living without making everyone else rearrange their lives, and abide by one sides ideas? So if they see MERRY CHRISTMAS instead of HAPPY HOLIDAYS,and it’s offensive,can’t they just ignore it and walk away? What’s this, that everything is offensive these days? Then turn the other way! It just makes me angry how Liberals say they want everything equal,fair, and generic, so no one person,place or thing, is given special rights,or attention over the other,and so that people are “free” to express themselves… “EXCEPT” they don’t want the same for the Conservatives. They preach about FREEDOM, & RIGHTS,& on and on, but only when it applies to them and their needs! They want to dismantle anything Conservative, like Talk Radio and TV stations such as FOX, but, aren’t these channels entitled to the same FREEDOMS that the Liberal media has, to be on the air? National Public Radio, or CNN….you don’t see them wanting to eliminate them! Can’t people see the hypocrisy of it all? You can’t have your cake and eat it too! If you want RIGHTS for “everyone” then that means EVERYONE-not just for Gays, and Liberals,etc., but 4 all parties! I have had people on the LEFT totally humiliate me openly, on Social Media, just because they noticed I posted a Happy Thanksgiving card from Laura and George Bush that I thought was nice,and just because I happen to like them! I posted nothing against any person or thing-just shared it! Yes,you have the right not to like it or Bush, ONLY DON’T “attack” me personally because you hate the Bush’s and you hate that I posted the photo or that I said GOD BLESS YOU and you’re an Atheist or you’re a Liberal!.That is SO wrong! I don’t post belittling photos and text against Liberals,or gays etc.,or anyone for that matter.As long as my likes,posts,pics,and differences aren’t hurting someone else,then get off my back! Stop being Hypocrites.

      1. paulnordin@aol.com says

        We are not all hypocrites. What or who is making you hide your Christmas tree? I would suggest that you can display your Christmas tree (or trees) with impunity. I don’t say “…under God…” when I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States but I believe in our country very strongly, God notwithstanding. I like your rant and rave, you make a lot of good points. But remember very firmly, all liberals or non-conservatives are not the same! Listen to other views, voice your views, discuss, depart amicably.

        1. Donna Hardin says

          Touche! I agree with you and you are right!! No disrespect intended for those who don’t deserve it ,and I should not have said ALL Liberals! I stand corrected!

  23. Mickie says

    I’m sick of gay rights! No matter who proclaims it, homosexuality is still unnatural & perverse! If God wanted 3 sexes He would have created male, female and hermaphrodites! I believe in Don’t ask, Don’t tell! They may be fine people, but I don’t want to know what they do in their bedroom & they can keep out of mine!

  24. Billy says

    Homosexuals are not the problem. Weak minded people who fall for all the Politically Correct BS are the problem. The “Freaks of Nature could not force anything on anyone if it were not for ignorant Democrats and weak minded Republican/Conservative/Independants who vote for stupid laws because they feel a need to be PC.
    People, we had better wake up soon. We are not only allowing it to happen but we are HELPING to take this country over the cliff. What ever happened to RIGHT and WRONG, GOOD and BAD ? Do we not have sense enough to know the difference anymore ? People of the same sex getting married, what the hell is happening ? That is WRONG ?
    The fat, ugggly “Freak of Nature” mayor in Houston has “NO” authority to make Pastors submit their sermons, emails, or anything else to her to be approved or disapproved. She needs to go to jail.

  25. Rick Rogers says

    The Premise of the Article shoots itself in the foot in the first Sentence. “So far as I’m aware, there’s nothing in the Bill of Rights guaranteeing gay people the right to marry a same-sex partner. ”

    The point is there is nothing in the Constitution or Bill of Rights Guaranteeing ANYONE the Right to Marry. Whether Straight or LGBT. That being said its no ones business what two adults decide to do with their lives as long as they are not harming anyone. If an owner of a business does not want to serve a customer, Unless its for Housing so be it. Why would anyone want to do business with a person that Disagrees with their existence. IF they say no fine. Just make sure Thru Social Media and other outlets that they let their friends know about the Refusal of service. The thing think I don’t get is your Rights and Religious Freedom stop at the end of your nose. If its against your religious to say Drink a Beer or a caffeinated Soft drink you don’t have the right to tell me I cannot do it. I got into a long post debate about if the Declaration of Independence was part of the “law of the Land” last week.. Well Here is their argument right back at them. “that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” So a gay couple is not allowed their Pursuit of Happiness? They Don’t have the Liberty to take as the Legal Partner the person they see fit to? YOU can have it both ways. You may object because of Religious reasons but you don’t have the right to tell someone else how to live their Life. I believe the Bible says something about “Man’s Free Will”

    1. Tom Brooks says

      Now you shot yourself in the foot. Maybe you are too old and your dementia prevents you from remembering the lunch counter sit-ins of the fifties. Or maybe you are too young and choose not to learn anything about history. Either way, business owners of lunch counters (not many walk in fast food joints then) were forced by the federal government to allow blacks to eat at white only lunch counters.
      Show me one business that can refuse service to anyone it chooses. Blacks can get by intimidating whites, even at the polls. But the reverse is prohibited.

    2. mallen11 says

      However, the gay community is going against God’s will. Being free to make our own choices also carries responsibility to God and society. Gays can live their lifestyle; just don’t expect me to accept it or force it on me if I chose to not bake them a cake. They are only trying to force their free will on my business when they could go elsewhere but don’t want to because they want to start trouble for those who don’t accept their lifestyle. I worked with a lot of gay people in several corporations in San Francisco and everyone of them acted like big babies so it doesn’t surprise me that they “want to have their way” with society.

  26. Jo Montana says

    Your so called “Social Progress” as you put it causes the fall of entire societies.
    While I appreciate the fact that you are for equal rights when it comes to religious beliefs, you are condoning a vile act with people celebrating their
    “Freedom” in the streets. Calling it Gay Pride. There’s nothing to be proud of….
    Next thing you know in this modern Sodom and Gomorrah there will be parades of people seeking equal rights to marry their pet goat or an infant child. This is not about being equal, its about depravity of the soul.
    God help us.

    1. Tom Brooks says

      OK Jo Montana, there you go. Your comment, “…there will be parades of people seeking equal rights to marry their pet goat or an infant child.” was obviously aimed at muslims. Of course they will demand those rights, after all the current muslim occupant of the Oval Office is the product of a white goat and an arab/black african goat herder. Inter species breeding is in their “culture”. If you need more proof, take a close look at Dennis Rodman and Hillary Rodham. Oops, did I misspell one of those last names”?

    2. suzyshopper says

      You are already seeing stirrings of the idea of multiple wives, in the courts that’s what happens when u open up Pandora’s box, u never quite know what will come out. I predict that in the coming yrs, we will see multiple ppl marrying each other, beastiality will no longer be punishable, pedophiles will use the gay laws to justify being able too marry who they love including children, the courts are already trying too lower the age of minors to engage in consensual sex with adults.The Bible says in the last days that evil will abound, we might be seeing the beginnings of it, it’s not going too get better if we are close too the end, expect much worse, the Bible says that christians will be persecuted even too the point of death. So strap on those seat belts, it’s gonna be a bumpy ride.

  27. Donna Hardin says

    Everything is so messed up. The Liberals say I should call my Christmas Tree, a “HOLIDAY” Tree so as not to offend OTHERS beliefs, that comments about extremist Muslims is racist and offensive, that allowing prayer in schools,and having the word “GOD” written “anywhere”, is offensive to those who don’t believe, everything that the white,Conservative says or does, is RACIST, and/or unacceptable, that people who worked their way from the dirt all the way to the top,and busted their butts doing it, should have to give away their hard-earned money paying high taxes so that many(not all) who are lazy and don’t want to work, and think they are entitled, are taken care of. WE aren’t to OFFEND anyone in any way with our Nativity Scenes, and Christmas Trees,our signs that has the word GOD written on them- so we are to eliminate them completely, but these same far left Liberals,don’t worry about the things they do that OFFENDS everyone else. Now I don’t care what others wish to believe,or if they wish to be in same sex marriages, become Atheist, advertise post signs,whatever,but don’t turn around and tell me,the Conservative that I DON’T HAVE THE SAME RIGHT to express my beliefs and way of life! My point: HYPOCRISY!

    1. William says

      How about this if it offends them turn a deaf ear to it. Like I have to do to some of the garbage I hear when traveling about in this world. If Jesus offends them then maybe they should leave or better yet stay put they might get enlightened to the truth and the truth will set them free. Just like it set me free from my bondage of alcohol, cursing, drugs (marijuana). Those were my worst habits when I came to Jesus or, better yet when he visited me in the hospital and showed me all the things he saved me form that was the changing point in my life. He started working on me and that was in June 1988 has not stopped working on me and yes his word is imprinted in my heart just like I read in another statement I will not forget it either.

      Thanksgiving Day 2013 I saw 2 young me walk up and kiss each other on the lips in the airport in Louisville, KY. I thought OH MY GOD what is this world coming to. Well remember Sodom and Gomorrah looks like it will not be to long and it will be happening again. it talked about they were marring and being given in marriage same thing that the US Supreme Court is doing today forcing the people to accept them and to marry them. I say should one not be more fearful of God than man? No wonder they wanted the 10 commandments taken out of the court house must have made the judges feel guilty and know what they are because this nation was founded upon worshiping God. Just look at how we have been blessed no other nation on earth has been blessed like this one it was a wilderness not more than 150 year ago. Now all those that are being lead by demonic spirits are trying to ruin what God has given his people. Go read the Old Testament about Israel how God blessed them and when they turned away what happened to them. Looks like America the beautiful will not be so beautiful when God pours out his wrath on this nation for turning away from Him.

      CHRISTIANS it is up to us to take a stand against all these demon spirits that want so badly to steal our blessing and to destroy all that God has given to us. We need to stand firmly on our beliefs as do those that serve those demon spirits. The judges that has made those decisions along with the 2 presidents that has pushed this ungodly way of life upon the Christians and trying to force us to keep quiet need to take a stand against all this evil. They will pay their price when Judgement day comes.

      1. suzyshopper says

        Couldn’t agree with u more!

  28. Archie Cogollos says

    What would’ve happened if the baker had been Muslim….better yet why would you want someone to bake or cook for you if they don’t want your business….I’d go somewhere else…spend my money elsewhere….

  29. belladonnacotton says

    The Constitution of the United States ensures Freedom of religion. It doesn’t say a word about Gay rights.

    1. Terry Call says

      The constitution also guarantees freedom from religion.

  30. Rodrigo De Bivar says

    Evil and demonic forces are hard at work to transform this once Judeo-Christian nation that now seems to be disappearing from view, into a socialist liberal nation that now glorifies and praises evil regardless how demonic it is whereas Christians who love the Lord and are loyal to His will, are now vilified, rejected, condemned and basically ostracized. The nation needs to read Isaiah 5:20 & following. Evil is now called good, how tragic and pathetic meanwhile God watches, waits and listens to the depravity of the nation and sooner or later, He will bring His wrath down upon us for our rebellion and disobedience to His will.

    1. suzyshopper says

      So true so true!

  31. William says

    As I recall in the history books Freedom of Religion is why this country was formed and built upon. I say if the fagots want to join the church if something offends them to go invest in ear plugs or repent. Repent means to tell God you are sorry for going against His will for man, then to not do it again. In other words words you turn away from the ungodly things in your life and if you go read Romans chapter ! it plainly states about these things. I know they are going to say man wrote that which is true but they were moved upon by the Holy Ghost. To blaspheme the Holy Ghost you are in terrible danger my friend. The way I understand it you can not get forgiveness. I believe that is where God turns those people over to a reprobate mind. In other words they are similar to satan think they are right but follow the lead of their guide satan and the end of that is hell and total destruction.

    Jesus is the gate keeper, to get into you will have to go through Him and there is no other way to get there except through Jesus. You can try but you will never make it and you can try to change God’s mind but that will never happen. I have heard some say it is a myth. Man what a bunch if blind fools. They have never known about God or Jesus so they are dumb to the fact They (God & Jesus) are so real.

    Why are the muslims in such a great hurry to destroy Christians? They follow their leader the devil he comes to kill, steal, and destroy. Look at Obama he is of the devil I can plainly see that and a lot of the balck people will agree he is not a Godly person. He claimed to be a Christian but how can a Christian hold hands with those that want to kill us. My bible tells me one can not have 2 masters or you will love one and hate the other. He love muslims and hates Christians he supports muslims to much. Go join a muslim cult and as soon as they find out you are gay better watch out they might stone you.

  32. DC/Tex says

    The homosexual (not PC gay) “AGENDA” is the worst disease infecting and destroying the morals, family values, and children (their agendas main target) of the USA and the world.
    Homosexuality will NEVER be natural, healthy (mentally or physically), normal, accepted, or OK!
    Homosexuality is the worst of the worst of destructive lifestyles.
    Homosexuals WERE NOT BORN THAT WAY, they CHOOSE their unnatural destructive lifestyle, so, homosexuality does not qualify as a civil rights discrimination issue.
    Homosexuals had equal rights, now they have special rights and want more. Every special right awarded to homosexuals infringes on our rights.
    God loves everyone, as we all should, including homosexuals. God hates all sin, as we all should, including homosexuality and He says it is an abomination.
    The silent Christian majority must put on the whole armor of God and battle against the radical homosexual agenda, that is why God provided his armor.

  33. Doris C says

    I understand how its happening its because we hired a non christian,Islamic protector,who wants no christian in USA. as president. Why is because we have become so live and let live, we allow it. We need to not allow it by voting and forcing our reps to not support anything obama wants.

  34. jeff BROWN says

    If gays truly feel that their relations are as honorable as those of sexually straight people, why would they not be happy going to a gay preacher or a gay cake maker?? Why are they incessant on invading territory where there business isn’t welcome?? We don’t hear of sexually straight people soliciting the services of gays.

    1. Terry Call says

      Fifty years ago people said much the same of interracial marriage. Beyond that millions of gays and lesbians are very much accepted and honorable employers in this fine nation. The biggest and richest corporation in the USA just happens to be a Gay man.

      The computer and its software you use was very probably designed by a gay man.

      1. suzyshopper says

        Your born a certain color your not born gay, their is no comparison, get tired of gay advocates bringing that up, too somehow justify deviant behavior.As for u saying millions of gays and lesbians are very much accepted in this nation, what does that have too do with changing the definition of marriage?

  35. beowulf32 says

    Dad Catches Rapist in Home – Beats Him to Bloody Pulp

    By Onan Coca / 19 July 2014

    I abhor violence and would say that I am not a violent man. However, there are times when I find myself cheering on acts of violence that seem… justified.

    This is one of those cases.

    A Daytona Beach man walked into his home and realized immediately that something was wrong. The house was too quiet.

    That’s when the man opened the door to a back room in the house and found an 18 year old neighbor sexually abusing his 11 year old son. The rest of the story is very violent.

    The father did exactly what he needed to do. He proceeded to beat the cowardly rapist to a bloody pulp – knocking him out (once or twice) and turning his face into something out of a horror movie.

    raymond frolander2Daytona Beach police Chief Mike Chitwood said the police have no plans to charge the father with any crime, “Dad was acting like a dad. I don’t see anything we should charge the dad with,” Chitwood said. “You have an 18-year-old who has clearly picked his target, groomed his target and had sex with the victim multiple times.”

    A transcript of the dad’s call to 911 is a little more descriptive about what transpired before police arrived.

    “I just walked in on a grown man molesting… And I got him in a bloody puddle for you officer. I didn’t proceed to ask him any questions sir. He is nice and knocked out on the floor for you. I drug him out to the living room. Send an ambulance. He is going to need one.

    When the dispatcher asked the dad to describe what had happened – the answer was simple.

    “He stood up and his pants were around his ankles and nothing else needed to be said,” the father told the dispatcher. “I did whatever I got a right to do except I didn’t kill him.”

    The father added that he told the molesting thug, “You are damn lucky boy that I love my God.”

    We don’t condone violence, but a father should have the leeway to do what he must to protect his children. When the police brought this evil criminal in for questioning, he quickly admitted that he had committed the heinous crime that he was being accused of. In fact, he had been molesting the poor child since he was 8 years old. Hopefully, the rapist will have many, many years to sit in prison and consider the horrible nature of his crimes.

    We applaud this dad for doing what was needed to protect his innocent little boy.

    Read more at http://eaglerising.com/7426/dad-catches-rapist-home-beats-bloody-pulp/#AQbG4tFt8ghZ77YH.99

    1. suzyshopper says

      Or else he will get some fancy lawyer who will bring up that the poor guy was probably abused when he was younger, and therefore we should have some sympathy for him, and give him a lighter sentence, so he can get out in the future and do it again sighhhh.

  36. belladonnacotton says

    No Terry Call it does not.

  37. norma says

    The homosexuality and lesbianism lifestyle’s is the very reason why God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. It’s a sin. God created man and woman to join together in unity (marriage) and to have children, to populate this world. I know people who are in this lifestyle and I separate myself from them, but I will not ms-treat them and we have spoken to one another regarding this matter. We are entitled to our own free will, the Lord will not push Himself on you. But when humans believe they know what is right for them self, then they are titled a fool. Don’t put this in my face for even Christians anger will rise, not right but it happens.

  38. larry says

    Yadja: You are absolutely correct! But I have a question: Didn’t Supreme Court Justice Elena Kagan say, “No one has a constitutional right to a same sex marriage.”? Please check on this.

  39. stephanie wilson says

    we are screwed if ”gay rights” trumps religious freedom.

  40. Rob Joyner says

    If you run a business and sell to the public, you sell to ALL the public. To do differently is discrimination.

  41. Rob Joyner says

    We choose to do certain wrongs. For those of us who cannot shake off and go on as having made a mistake we can forgive ourselves for, we come up with someone or something seen as greater than we to whom we see as perfect and can take the wrong for us and let us off the hook in the process – therein is god. Man created god to let him off the hook when he blunders and cannot get over it.

  42. akoby says

    Gay marriage is the governments law not God’s law, therefore let the government marry Gays. The government should not be in the business of trampling First Amendment rights to practice our religion freely, without government interference. Churches that don’t support gay marriage should not be forced to abandon their beliefs. Government law does not supercede Gods’ law.As long as gays can marry civilly and are guarranteed all the civil rights they were denied, (by governments by the way), then that should be the end of it.

  43. al11 says

    getting back to the point of the article, i have always understood that most, if not all, churches have their own bylaws which express their beliefs according to scripture. thus, when it comes to performing marriages, the churches have long held that they…and their ministers…hold the ‘say’ in whether to perform any given marriage, based on the beliefs, understandings, and history of those wishing to be married. that means that in order for anyone to be married in a given church, they must confirm that they are in agreement with the beliefs of the church about the things which the church believes. i have seen some people turned down when requesting to be married because one or both parties does not meet the standards of the church or the minister asked to perform the ceremony. that said, it seems to me that the same should hold true for homosexual persons wanting to be married in a church by their minister. it would be the same thing as ‘usual’ for heterosexual couples! i believe this to be not only the best defense for any church coming under scrutiny of the law and authorities, but a totally viable defense which the law would have to take into account.

  44. MichaelZZ says

    There should be no gay rights, no white rights, no black rights…., there should be human rights.
    mz

  45. headonstraight says

    The Knapps, the couple who operate a wedding chapel in Idaho and have come under attack there for declining to provide same-sex wedding ceremonies, have sued to prevent adverse action against them by the city of Coeur d’Alene. Their complaint, recently filed with the court, is very powerful and it is virtually certain that they will prevail. The city’s ordinance provides an qualified exemption for religious organizations, and it is indisputable that they qualify as a religious organization, as is thoroughly documented in their suit against the city.

    They will prevail. The city will have to pay their court costs.

    End of story; the seer has spoken!

  46. LastGasp says

    This article doesn’t quite relate the truth of the matter that is going on in Idaho. I grew up near and have lived in and around Coeur d’ Alene for most of 60 years. I personally know the people whom this controversy revolves around and have seen how it has been turned into a big deal used for political purposes by the media and the politically correct atmosphere forced on society by the globalist/communist agenda.
    The City of CDA recently updated their city charter to include a non-discrimination clause for queers. Being the hub of a beautiful tourist/recreation oriented region in Northern Idaho, I’m sure it was a case of legal CYA for the city fathers.
    The people affected were two pastors, husband and wife, who run a for-profit wedding chapel that provides quickie weddings for those who want the legality without the formality.
    The new clause in the City of CDA’s charter protects queers from discrimination by public, for-profit organizations. The couple who run the wedding chapel having been notified of the change in the charter applied for being recognized as a “religious association” which would make them exempt from the new clause in the charter.
    That’s it, folks. Nothing to see here, move along. Nobody was forced against their beliefs to marry queers. However, it made for “good” press and the media jumped all over it. The owners of the wedding chapel don’t even know the law firm (from Utah, I believe) that is making this a national concern.
    For more information, Google Coeur d’ Alene Press, Hitching Post.

  47. suzyshopper says

    My question is too the atheists out there, do u actually believe that your fellow human beings,would wish for anyone and eternity in Hell, do u actually believe that we would put ourselves out there to be ridiculed and threatened, do u think it actually brings us pleasure too see our unsaved relatives die, knowing what’s in store for them REALLY???Im mean REALLY, do think christians are so heartless so evil?Christians are here too warn ppl of the coming judgement and penalties, out of love, because we don’t want anyone to spend eternity in a horrible place, I truly would believe myself heartless if I didn’t say something!!

  48. Janice Foster says

    It is not in the Constitution for gays to have the Right to be married to one another! It is is in the Bible that man is not to lay with men or women with women.

  49. Janice Foster says

    They have their Right to marry now and be gay! Let’s shut the hell up about it! It is ugly to hear and read
    about! It is as ugly as nudity!

  50. RuFus92 says

    The SCOTUS confirmed that there is no longer any freedom of religion or separation of church and state in this country with their legalization ruling of gay marriage and has insured that the Constitution is no longer a document we can rely on to insure the separation of church and state. How could they have been so blind. Remember folks it was the Democratic party that pushed this through and the swing vote came from someone recommended by Jeb Bush when election time rolls around.

  51. Tiger says

    There is no Religious freedom under O there is only Freedom for Gays and all those who hate America.

    Time to Revolt.

  52. Tiger says

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